Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Patti Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:14 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn... while reading Chirstopher's first paragraph I have a rather simple question for you to answer:

Christopher describes the four 'different states of matter': solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Can you please tell me how Christopher connected them with the four elements: earth, water, fire and air?

(I'll give you a hint in advance why I ask this question... my attention got focussed on the 'order' that he presented the four 'different states of matter'!)

I think it's obvious.
earth - solid
water - liquid
air - gas
plasma - fire

Just to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR........ when I said
"I'm glad it's all crystal clear to you Martijn. That means we don't have to discuss it any further. "
that means I'm done with this discussion. I have no motivation to reply to it when almost everything I say, quote, or try to explain is misunderstood, dismissed, rubbished etc. If I am as mistaken, confused and lacking in understanding as you say Martijn, I have no idea why you keep asking me questions.

Thanks Lynn!

Okay, I understand your feelings.

As a final statement I will specify my problem with Christopher's guidelines regarding the use of key-words in a manner that result in the following problem:

In his writings (p.74) Christopher used the following concept:
earth + fire = expressive vs water + air = ...???

Lynn, I think the word 'repressive' is most accurate oposite polarity for the words 'expressive' (since 'receptive' is already in use against 'creative' according your notes)... and because 'repressive' itself appears to be a typical earth quality, I think Christopher's association does not make sense at all!

Anyway Lynn, I guess there is not much choice left for me then to accept your decision that you're done with this discussion.

An apology might be more in order.

Patti Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:26 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...
There aren't many feminine and inner idioms, if any, related to the thumb.

under someone's thumb - controlling - active
thumbs up - active
thumbs down - active
thumb your nose - active
thumb a ride - sticking the thumb out into the public to get attention for action i.e. a ride
thumbing through a book - active
stick out like a sore thumb - active
rule of thumb - controlling - active
a green thumb - active
twiddling thumbs - active - outer show of inner boredom

In most of these hand positions above, the rest of the fingers are curled into the palm and only the thumb is sticking out and exposed to the public.

What do you mean with feminine and inner idioms?
Do you have one for the pinky finger?

(In general, any idiom can be described as an example of 'folklore'... because the thumb-up sign can be described your and my culture as 'possitve', but you better not use it on Sicilia, Italy, because there it is considered as an obscene gesture!)

Fokelore is a good source as it's just folks that we're reading.

I just recalled the pinky promise. When friends lock pinkies and make a promise to each other. This is a personal thing and a promise is generally inward - something that is honored from within.

Wrapped around someone's little finger - represents a private sort of control - almost subliminal and not as outward as being under someone's thumb.

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:04 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...
There aren't many feminine and inner idioms, if any, related to the thumb.

under someone's thumb - controlling - active
thumbs up - active
thumbs down - active
thumb your nose - active
thumb a ride - sticking the thumb out into the public to get attention for action i.e. a ride
thumbing through a book - active
stick out like a sore thumb - active
rule of thumb - controlling - active
a green thumb - active
twiddling thumbs - active - outer show of inner boredom

In most of these hand positions above, the rest of the fingers are curled into the palm and only the thumb is sticking out and exposed to the public.

What do you mean with feminine and inner idioms?
Do you have one for the pinky finger?

(In general, any idiom can be described as an example of 'folklore'... because the thumb-up sign can be described your and my culture as 'possitve', but you better not use it on Sicilia, Italy, because there it is considered as an obscene gesture!)

Fokelore is a good source as it's just folks that we're reading.

I just recalled the pinky promise. When friends lock pinkies and make a promise to each other. This is a personal thing and a promise is generally inward - something that is honored from within.

Wrapped around someone's little finger - represents a private sort of control - almost subliminal and not as outward as being under someone's thumb.

I perceive the 'pinky promise' as an inter-personal activity with 2 people equally involved (the other expression also appears to relate to an attachment between two people).

The difference is that the thumb-expressions appear to have a more 'personal' element in the sense that those concern a message from one person to another.

This is how I could describe the difference between those gestures with the key-words in my chart: 'public world' versus 'personal world'?

(Public world relates to inter-personal activities with people more equally involved, while the personal world can be associated with inter-personal activities where the individual gives himself/herself more a role on it's own)

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:18 pm

Lynn wrote:
And in Elemental Chirology the thumb is represented as:

earth phalange (= passive & cold) + water phalange (= passive & cold) + fire phalange (= active & hot)

RESULT: Thumb = 2x passive + 2x cold + 1x active + 1x hot ..........

CONCLUSION: The thumb is more passive & cold than the fingers

You can't add it up like that.
And there are so many factors that you have not taken into consideration of assessment of the thumb. For example, thumb shape, flexibility, tip shape, dermatoglyphic.
Really Martijn you just don't seem to understand how to apply the elements to the hand.

Lynn, we are discussing the principles that are connected with the invidual part of the hand. The features that you mentioned can only be specified in the perspective of the hand of an individual.

I am discussing the fundamentals, I am not talking about how to do a hand reading.

So, even though you describe that in your perception I don't understand how to apply the elements to the hand... I think you didn't the nail on the head because am not talking about 'how to apply' anything,

I am only trying to discuss the underlying fundamentals of the individual parts of the hand.

Patti Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:21 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

I perceive the 'pinky promise' as an inter-personal activity with 2 people equally involved (the other expression also appears to relate to an attachment between two people).

The difference is that the thumb-expressions appear to have a more 'personal' element in the sense that those concern a message from one person to another.

This is how I could describe the difference between those gestures with the key-words in my chart: 'public world' versus 'personal world'?

(Public world relates to inter-personal activities with people more equally involved, while the personal world can be associated with inter-personal activities where the individual gives himself/herself more a role on it's own)

Well, it's your chart and your personal selection of keywords - you can set it up however you like.

I have Sprong's book in front of me and opened to chapter 2, The Thumb.

From what I am reading, other than using words like soul and referring occasionally to inner self, his descriptions are nearly the same as most other palmistry books.

Generic meaning for the thumb is how a person puts themselves out there. Their ego, their sense of self. It is an outward expression the inner self.

Edo speaks of motivation and lack of motivation. The stored energy (vitality of the Venus mount traditionally) to "stick their neck out".

He also says unfounded things like a baby sucking it's thumb is developing its Willpower! lol!

He refers to Wisdom as the 2nd phalange. Yet wisdom is something that a person gains via experience and if we're measuring this development of wisdom then this 2nd phalange should change considerably as a person matures.

His vocabulary choice is a personal expression and I wouldn't take it as absolute but with a grain of salt.

You should take his entire chapter in context rather than pulling selected Keywords to suit your fancy.

lol!

<edit> now I'm contradicting myself - rolling on the floor

- do the chart as you please /don't cherry pick keywords. I'm about to where Lynn is. This thread has gone in a circle so many times that I'm dizzy.

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:29 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...
There aren't many feminine and inner idioms, if any, related to the thumb.

under someone's thumb - controlling - active
thumbs up - active
thumbs down - active
thumb your nose - active
thumb a ride - sticking the thumb out into the public to get attention for action i.e. a ride
thumbing through a book - active
stick out like a sore thumb - active
rule of thumb - controlling - active
a green thumb - active
twiddling thumbs - active - outer show of inner boredom

In most of these hand positions above, the rest of the fingers are curled into the palm and only the thumb is sticking out and exposed to the public.

What do you mean with feminine and inner idioms?
Do you have one for the pinky finger?

(In general, any idiom can be described as an example of 'folklore'... because the thumb-up sign can be described your and my culture as 'possitve', but you better not use it on Sicilia, Italy, because there it is considered as an obscene gesture!)

Fokelore is a good source as it's just folks that we're reading.

I just recalled the pinky promise. When friends lock pinkies and make a promise to each other. This is a personal thing and a promise is generally inward - something that is honored from within.

Wrapped around someone's little finger - represents a private sort of control - almost subliminal and not as outward as being under someone's thumb.

I don't consider folklore as a good source, because the value of folkore is illustrated by this Chinese fingerprint formula:

(Quoted from Jennifer's website)

"One whorl indicates poverty
Two whorls indicate riches
Three and four whorls good aspect to open a pawnshop
Five whorls for a mediator
Six whorls for a thief
Seven whorls very bad, indicates catastrophes
Eight whorls and you will eat chaff
Nine whorls with a loop and there will be no work for you to do, and plenty of food till old age
And ten whorls ??? …. this remains a mystery..… does anyone know how this story ends?"

We know that such folklore based descriptions are not true!

wave

Patti Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:46 pm

Looking at page 26 of Birla's "Destiny in the Palm of Your Hand"
He describes the entire hand (as I do) as the outer expression of the inner self. He describes the 3 universes which are similar to Judith Hipskind's. He refers to the differences between dominant and non-dominant hands (page 67) but doesn't seem to refer to areas that are only inner and outer or public and private as he sees the hand as in his words "The study of the entire hand reveals the nature of our public self." (page 26) Birla refers to balance between energies. Which is similar to what I have been saying about degrees.

If you read his thoughts about the Mercury mount, he suggests communication is the bi-product of developing the mind. He speaks of 'enlightenment' which is definitely an inner and personal experience. In order to communicate something has to happen inwardly first.

I do not see how Birla or Sprong support your viewpoint of the thumb side of the hand relates to the inner self.

<edit> In his book "Love in the Palm of Your Hand" page 121 at the beginning of the section on the thumb he says "Extending from Venus, the mount of love, the thumb shows your ability to give conscious expression to your love. It also shows the expression of your individuality. In order to love others, you must first know and love yourself."

Patti Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:47 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...
There aren't many feminine and inner idioms, if any, related to the thumb.

under someone's thumb - controlling - active
thumbs up - active
thumbs down - active
thumb your nose - active
thumb a ride - sticking the thumb out into the public to get attention for action i.e. a ride
thumbing through a book - active
stick out like a sore thumb - active
rule of thumb - controlling - active
a green thumb - active
twiddling thumbs - active - outer show of inner boredom

In most of these hand positions above, the rest of the fingers are curled into the palm and only the thumb is sticking out and exposed to the public.

What do you mean with feminine and inner idioms?
Do you have one for the pinky finger?

(In general, any idiom can be described as an example of 'folklore'... because the thumb-up sign can be described your and my culture as 'possitve', but you better not use it on Sicilia, Italy, because there it is considered as an obscene gesture!)

Fokelore is a good source as it's just folks that we're reading.

I just recalled the pinky promise. When friends lock pinkies and make a promise to each other. This is a personal thing and a promise is generally inward - something that is honored from within.

Wrapped around someone's little finger - represents a private sort of control - almost subliminal and not as outward as being under someone's thumb.

I don't consider folklore as a good source, because the value of folkore is illustrated by this Chinese fingerprint formula:

(Quoted from Jennifer's website)

"One whorl indicates poverty
Two whorls indicate riches
Three and four whorls good aspect to open a pawnshop
Five whorls for a mediator
Six whorls for a thief
Seven whorls very bad, indicates catastrophes
Eight whorls and you will eat chaff
Nine whorls with a loop and there will be no work for you to do, and plenty of food till old age
And ten whorls ??? …. this remains a mystery..… does anyone know how this story ends?"

We know that such folklore based descriptions are not true!

I don't know - have you compared these to Unger's system?

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:53 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn... while reading Chirstopher's first paragraph I have a rather simple question for you to answer:

Christopher describes the four 'different states of matter': solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Can you please tell me how Christopher connected them with the four elements: earth, water, fire and air?

(I'll give you a hint in advance why I ask this question... my attention got focussed on the 'order' that he presented the four 'different states of matter'!)

I think it's obvious.
earth - solid
water - liquid
air - gas
plasma - fire

Just to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR........ when I said
"I'm glad it's all crystal clear to you Martijn. That means we don't have to discuss it any further. "
that means I'm done with this discussion. I have no motivation to reply to it when almost everything I say, quote, or try to explain is misunderstood, dismissed, rubbished etc. If I am as mistaken, confused and lacking in understanding as you say Martijn, I have no idea why you keep asking me questions.

Thanks Lynn!

Okay, I understand your feelings.

As a final statement I will specify my problem with Christopher's guidelines regarding the use of key-words in a manner that result in the following problem:

In his writings (p.74) Christopher used the following concept:
earth + fire = expressive vs water + air = ...???

Lynn, I think the word 'repressive' is most accurate oposite polarity for the words 'expressive' (since 'receptive' is already in use against 'creative' according your notes)... and because 'repressive' itself appears to be a typical earth quality, I think Christopher's association does not make sense at all!

Anyway Lynn, I guess there is not much choice left for me then to accept your decision that you're done with this discussion.

An apology might be more in order.

An apology for what Patti?

(I can relate Lynn's words "misunderstood, dismissed, rubbished" to how I have made clear statementa and how I have used my arguments; but I don't think that I have made any comments on a personal level... so I feel no need to apologize for the content of any of my posts. And I think Lynn is well-capable to act assertive when anything like that would have been appropriate for me to do.)

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:55 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...
There aren't many feminine and inner idioms, if any, related to the thumb.

under someone's thumb - controlling - active
thumbs up - active
thumbs down - active
thumb your nose - active
thumb a ride - sticking the thumb out into the public to get attention for action i.e. a ride
thumbing through a book - active
stick out like a sore thumb - active
rule of thumb - controlling - active
a green thumb - active
twiddling thumbs - active - outer show of inner boredom

In most of these hand positions above, the rest of the fingers are curled into the palm and only the thumb is sticking out and exposed to the public.

What do you mean with feminine and inner idioms?
Do you have one for the pinky finger?

(In general, any idiom can be described as an example of 'folklore'... because the thumb-up sign can be described your and my culture as 'possitve', but you better not use it on Sicilia, Italy, because there it is considered as an obscene gesture!)

Fokelore is a good source as it's just folks that we're reading.

I just recalled the pinky promise. When friends lock pinkies and make a promise to each other. This is a personal thing and a promise is generally inward - something that is honored from within.

Wrapped around someone's little finger - represents a private sort of control - almost subliminal and not as outward as being under someone's thumb.

I don't consider folklore as a good source, because the value of folkore is illustrated by this Chinese fingerprint formula:

(Quoted from Jennifer's website)

"One whorl indicates poverty
Two whorls indicate riches
Three and four whorls good aspect to open a pawnshop
Five whorls for a mediator
Six whorls for a thief
Seven whorls very bad, indicates catastrophes
Eight whorls and you will eat chaff
Nine whorls with a loop and there will be no work for you to do, and plenty of food till old age
And ten whorls ??? …. this remains a mystery..… does anyone know how this story ends?"

We know that such folklore based descriptions are not true!

I don't know - have you compared these to Unger's system?

Patti, I hope that's not like a serious suggestion?

Patti Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:04 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn... while reading Chirstopher's first paragraph I have a rather simple question for you to answer:

Christopher describes the four 'different states of matter': solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Can you please tell me how Christopher connected them with the four elements: earth, water, fire and air?

(I'll give you a hint in advance why I ask this question... my attention got focussed on the 'order' that he presented the four 'different states of matter'!)

I think it's obvious.
earth - solid
water - liquid
air - gas
plasma - fire

Just to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR........ when I said
"I'm glad it's all crystal clear to you Martijn. That means we don't have to discuss it any further. "
that means I'm done with this discussion. I have no motivation to reply to it when almost everything I say, quote, or try to explain is misunderstood, dismissed, rubbished etc. If I am as mistaken, confused and lacking in understanding as you say Martijn, I have no idea why you keep asking me questions.

Thanks Lynn!

Okay, I understand your feelings.

As a final statement I will specify my problem with Christopher's guidelines regarding the use of key-words in a manner that result in the following problem:

In his writings (p.74) Christopher used the following concept:
earth + fire = expressive vs water + air = ...???

Lynn, I think the word 'repressive' is most accurate oposite polarity for the words 'expressive' (since 'receptive' is already in use against 'creative' according your notes)... and because 'repressive' itself appears to be a typical earth quality, I think Christopher's association does not make sense at all!

Anyway Lynn, I guess there is not much choice left for me then to accept your decision that you're done with this discussion.

An apology might be more in order.

An apology for what Patti?

(I can relate Lynn's words "misunderstood, dismissed, rubbished" to how I have made clear statementa and how I have used my arguments; but I don't think that I have made any comments on a personal level... so I feel no need to apologize for the content of any of my posts. And I think Lynn is well-capable to act assertive when anything like that would have been appropriate for me to do.)

Well, it's just my outside viewpoint, but I felt you were demeaning and insulting. You made it look like she was using a system full of contradictions and mistakes - which by insinuation implies she doesn't know what she's doing.

Patti Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:09 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...
There aren't many feminine and inner idioms, if any, related to the thumb.

under someone's thumb - controlling - active
thumbs up - active
thumbs down - active
thumb your nose - active
thumb a ride - sticking the thumb out into the public to get attention for action i.e. a ride
thumbing through a book - active
stick out like a sore thumb - active
rule of thumb - controlling - active
a green thumb - active
twiddling thumbs - active - outer show of inner boredom

In most of these hand positions above, the rest of the fingers are curled into the palm and only the thumb is sticking out and exposed to the public.

What do you mean with feminine and inner idioms?
Do you have one for the pinky finger?

(In general, any idiom can be described as an example of 'folklore'... because the thumb-up sign can be described your and my culture as 'possitve', but you better not use it on Sicilia, Italy, because there it is considered as an obscene gesture!)

Fokelore is a good source as it's just folks that we're reading.

I just recalled the pinky promise. When friends lock pinkies and make a promise to each other. This is a personal thing and a promise is generally inward - something that is honored from within.

Wrapped around someone's little finger - represents a private sort of control - almost subliminal and not as outward as being under someone's thumb.

I don't consider folklore as a good source, because the value of folkore is illustrated by this Chinese fingerprint formula:

(Quoted from Jennifer's website)

"One whorl indicates poverty
Two whorls indicate riches
Three and four whorls good aspect to open a pawnshop
Five whorls for a mediator
Six whorls for a thief
Seven whorls very bad, indicates catastrophes
Eight whorls and you will eat chaff
Nine whorls with a loop and there will be no work for you to do, and plenty of food till old age
And ten whorls ??? …. this remains a mystery..… does anyone know how this story ends?"

We know that such folklore based descriptions are not true!

I don't know - have you compared these to Unger's system?

Patti, I hope that's not like a serious suggestion?

**Martijn (admin)** Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:26 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn... while reading Chirstopher's first paragraph I have a rather simple question for you to answer:

Christopher describes the four 'different states of matter': solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Can you please tell me how Christopher connected them with the four elements: earth, water, fire and air?

(I'll give you a hint in advance why I ask this question... my attention got focussed on the 'order' that he presented the four 'different states of matter'!)

I think it's obvious.
earth - solid
water - liquid
air - gas
plasma - fire

Just to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR........ when I said
"I'm glad it's all crystal clear to you Martijn. That means we don't have to discuss it any further. "
that means I'm done with this discussion. I have no motivation to reply to it when almost everything I say, quote, or try to explain is misunderstood, dismissed, rubbished etc. If I am as mistaken, confused and lacking in understanding as you say Martijn, I have no idea why you keep asking me questions.

Thanks Lynn!

Okay, I understand your feelings.

As a final statement I will specify my problem with Christopher's guidelines regarding the use of key-words in a manner that result in the following problem:

In his writings (p.74) Christopher used the following concept:
earth + fire = expressive vs water + air = ...???

Lynn, I think the word 'repressive' is most accurate oposite polarity for the words 'expressive' (since 'receptive' is already in use against 'creative' according your notes)... and because 'repressive' itself appears to be a typical earth quality, I think Christopher's association does not make sense at all!

Anyway Lynn, I guess there is not much choice left for me then to accept your decision that you're done with this discussion.

An apology might be more in order.

An apology for what Patti?

(I can relate Lynn's words "misunderstood, dismissed, rubbished" to how I have made clear statementa and how I have used my arguments; but I don't think that I have made any comments on a personal level... so I feel no need to apologize for the content of any of my posts. And I think Lynn is well-capable to act assertive when anything like that would have been appropriate for me to do.)

Well, it's just my outside viewpoint, but I felt you were demeaning and insulting. You made it look like she was using a system full of contradictions and mistakes - which by insinuation implies she doesn't know what she's doing.

Hi Patti, for real... if there has been made any obvious insult inside this discussion I think you should be able to find it here: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p60-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#25644

(It's kind of amusing so see that Chistopher e.g speaks of plagiarism... while some of the most experience people at this forum - by the way, this point does not concern the insult that I have in mind regarding that post)

Patti Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:28 am

Patti on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:22 pm

Patti wrote:Martijn, I think that what confuses you is that you stop and think quadrants while dropping the vertical and horizontal energies.

All three fields have to be looked at simultaneously.

Fingers (outer) to Wrist (inner) with a horizontal division.
Radial (outer) to Ulnar (inner) with a vertical division

Each of these have a middle field where one fades to the other.

These two divisions of fields create the quadrants.

In this way, you can see the little finger quadrant is in the 'outer' field of the horizontal division but in the 'inner' field of another. This way there becomes a most innermost section, the lower ulnar quadrant and an outer most section the index finger quadrant. Both the thumb and little finger quadrants have mixed inner and outer qualities... all the time.

<edit>It is very obvious that assigning elements to these sections does not really make complete sense in reality. Maybe good for getting a gist of the section, but not empirical analogies.

Patti on Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:02 pm

Judith Hipskind "Palmistry The Whole View"

I do I appreciate that you've included Judith Hipskind in your chart.

On February 11th in response to you asking for what book I'd recommend I posted "Palmistry The Whole View".
On February 16th, I paraphrased her words to fit into the discussion, switching the keywords to inner/outer for active/passion and conscious/unconscious.

You ignored both posts as you focused on the elements. Yet in the end, it is Judith Hipskind's illustrations that gave you the most support (except for inner/outer and public/private self). Where I said if you agree with her, then I'd agree with you.

Patti Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:48 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

(It's kind of amusing so see that Chistopher e.g speaks of plagiarism... while some of the most experience people at this forum - by the way, this point does not concern the insult that I have in mind regarding that post)
[/color]

I re-read his post and your two responses and do not pick up the insult. It must be something that is triggered between you two.

What I found interesting at the time and still do, is that you replied to Christopher that choosing the thumb side for 'inner self' was not a personal choice but was based on other sources. Yet from the beginning of this discussion until now you have held steady with your opinion that the thumb side relates to the inner self and the little finger side to the public self.

If you don't have any more support besides the now lack of support by Sprong and Birla, I think you've failed to show valid support for your theory.

Patti Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:57 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:

Well, it's just my outside viewpoint, but I felt you were demeaning and insulting. You made it look like she was using a system full of contradictions and mistakes - which by insinuation implies she doesn't know what she's doing.

Hi Patti, for real... if there has been made any obvious insult inside this discussion I think you should be able to find it here: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p60-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#25644

(It's kind of amusing so see that Chistopher e.g speaks of plagiarism... while some of the most experience people at this forum - by the way, this point does not concern the insult that I have in mind regarding that post)

Then were you indirectly 'communicating' with Christopher for this 'insult' via Lynn and that is why you became so aggressive in insisting she acknowledge differences in Johnny's, Christopher's and Dukes' words?

Patti Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:15 am

Martijn's Big Mistake

OMG! I can't stop laughing!

Martijn, if you take a look at Birla's chart on page 57 of "Love in the Palm of Your Hand" for thumb side being Inner and little finger side being Outer. You need to read how he describes the inner and outer worlds on this page!!

Most people achieve the "outer world" via death. Being here in the physical is the "inner world".

i.e. "Enlightenment, part of the outer world indicated by Mercury, occurs when we transcend body, mind and emotions. This happens at death; however, if we can learn to see ourselves and all other living things as part of a whole - that is, as pure spirit - we are able to transcend without actually leaving our physical bodies."

**Martijn (admin)** Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:20 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:

Well, it's just my outside viewpoint, but I felt you were demeaning and insulting. You made it look like she was using a system full of contradictions and mistakes - which by insinuation implies she doesn't know what she's doing.

Hi Patti, for real... if there has been made any obvious insult inside this discussion I think you should be able to find it here: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p60-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#25644

(It's kind of amusing so see that Chistopher e.g speaks of plagiarism... while some of the most experience people at this forum - by the way, this point does not concern the insult that I have in mind regarding that post)

Then were you indirectly 'communicating' with Christopher for this 'insult' via Lynn and that is why you became so aggressive in insisting she acknowledge differences in Johnny's, Christopher's and Dukes' words?

No Patti, the example only served to illustrate what I call an insult. You shouldn't take that example to any personal level at all.

(I can actually laugh a little bit about the words because I am aware of the story behind those words - which could be described as 'personal stuff' between those individuals involved, but I never got involved anyhow)

**Martijn (admin)** Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:50 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn's Big Mistake

OMG! I can't stop laughing!

Martijn, if you take a look at Birla's chart on page 57 of "Love in the Palm of Your Hand" for thumb side being Inner and little finger side being Outer. You need to read how he describes the inner and outer worlds on this page!!

Most people achieve the "outer world" via death. Being here in the physical is the "inner world".

i.e. "Enlightenment, part of the outer world indicated by Mercury, occurs when we transcend body, mind and emotions. This happens at death; however, if we can learn to see ourselves and all other living things as part of a whole - that is, as pure spirit - we are able to transcend without actually leaving our physical bodies."

Patti, you misunderstood Birla's writing style. He doesn't associate death with the outer world, he describes how the sun and mercurius represent parts of the outer world. You got totally confused by Birla's philosphic style of describing things!

You should also understand here that Birla (and Sprong) associate the dorsal side of the hand with the superconscious which they describe as the spirtual life before conceptoin and after death - which we are said to carry with us (but Sprong doesn't describe this larger perspective in his book, and I am not sure if Birla describes all details of what I just described) .

Birla is talking about the heart line (in the perspective of his long treatment about the heart line and the quadrengle) ending at the side of the hand, which is considered as the transition stage to the spiritual dimension.

Patti, if you take a look inside his other book (Destiny in the Palm of Your Hand) you will find on page 45 the following description:

"The mounts and fingers of the outer world indicate the qualities of our interaction with the outer world. The outer world shows our public persona and our ability to communicate thougths and ideas to the world."

So Patti, you completely misunderstood Birla's comment in the book that you refered to, because Birla recognizes the ulnar termination (which is connected with the back of the hand) as the point where the (conscious) life in the physical world ends - which he calls the 'universality of death' (because death is inevitable, etc.). Birla's words 'outer world' do relate to the current outside world (but he also speaks about the superconsciousness which relates to the back of the hand, because in his philosphic approach he describes a much larger perspective - reincarnation etc. - than just the current life)

Banana waving

**Martijn (admin)** Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:00 am

Meanwhile... things keep moving forward, and the chart below is just another preview of how what I have in mind:

(Sprong & Birla both use Vedic Palmistry and their descriptions regarding the major zones of the hand are likewise)

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 22 Thumb-35

Patti Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:00 am

I did check his other book and he is referring to the qualities as 'self-expression' on his outer/pinkie side of the hand. So do I in practice, I just see it as the ulnar and more inner side of self (yet I would relate to out of body experiences on the ulnar side of the hand) These qualities of self-expression are like Sue talked about such as where music comes from inside of oneself. They are expressions that we communicate outwardly (or not) to the world.

No, I read his words carefully. Agree he is calling the ulnar side Public but sees it as an expression of what other authors call 'inner' qualities. He has all the same things... just adds the word public and calls it outer (as in regards to from 'out of body' or spirit). And calls the thumb side private, yet describes it like everyone else (adding his spiritual twists).

But I am absolutely positive that he sees inner as in the body and outer as from outside the body. One must transcend the body.... into the outer world.

**Martijn (admin)** Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:09 am

Patti wrote:I did check his other book and he is referring to the qualities as 'self-expression' on his outer/pinkie side of the hand. So do I in practice, I just see it as the ulnar and more inner side of self (yet I would relate to out of body experiences on the ulnar side of the hand) These qualities of self-expression are like Sue talked about such as where music comes from inside of oneself. They are expressions that we communicate outwardly (or not) to the world.

No, I read his words carefully. Agree he is calling the ulnar side Public but sees it as an expression of what other authors call 'inner' qualities. He has all the same things... just adds the word public and calls it outer (as in regards to from 'out of body' or spirit). And calls the thumb side private, yet describes it like everyone else (adding his spiritual twists).

But I am absolutely positive that he sees inner as in the body and outer as from outside the body. One must transcend the body.... into the outer world.

Patti, please substantiate your thought with a quotation from Birla's work.

My quote from Birla's other book illustrates clearly that the words 'outer world' usually only relate to this world (only sometimes he also associates the universum with the 'outer world'... that is probably how you arrived into your incorrect association suggesting that Birla associates 'outer world' with death!).

Birla did not write- nor suggest: "Most people achieve the "outer world" via death."; these are only your words Patti - after you misunderstood Birla's description completely!

wave

PS. Would you please edit your 'banana-post'... because you obviously made a huge mistake due to misinterpretation. Very Happy

Patti Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:10 am

Patti wrote:Looking at page 26 of Birla's "Destiny in the Palm of Your Hand"
He describes the entire hand (as I do) as the outer expression of the inner self. He describes the 3 universes which are similar to Judith Hipskind's. He refers to the differences between dominant and non-dominant hands (page 67) but doesn't seem to refer to areas that are only inner and outer or public and private as he sees the hand as in his words "The study of the entire hand reveals the nature of our public self." (page 26) Birla refers to balance between energies. Which is similar to what I have been saying about degrees.

If you read his thoughts about the Mercury mount, he suggests communication is the bi-product of developing the mind. He speaks of 'enlightenment' which is definitely an inner and personal experience. In order to communicate something has to happen inwardly first.

I do not see how Birla or Sprong support your viewpoint of the thumb side of the hand relates to the inner self.

<edit> In his book "Love in the Palm of Your Hand" page 121 at the beginning of the section on the thumb he says "Extending from Venus, the mount of love, the thumb shows your ability to give conscious expression to your love. It also shows the expression of your individuality. In order to love others, you must first know and love yourself."

I already did in this post - see the bold letters.

Patti Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:13 am

Oh dear, do you think Birla's books are filled with contradictions then...?

(I don't think so, I think he has used the words inner and outer, as well as public and private, totally differently than other authors - but hasn't changed the indications of the features indicated)

**Martijn (admin)** Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:24 am

Patti wrote:
I do not see how Birla or Sprong support your viewpoint of the thumb side of the hand relates to the inner self.

Patti, on page 56/57 you can find the evidence:

"The five digits of the hand are divided into the inner and outer worlds: the thumb (Venus) and jupiter finger make up the inner, the sun and mercury fingers make up the outer."

wave

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