I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

anithapalm wrote:Thanks martijn sir for reply. Verification is the only proof for the theory. so, I wonder how we can verify theories without practical verification. Also, Logic is not the simple aspect of one's intelligence. It is a peculiar phenomena which can be possessed by brainy individuals like detective agents. how can we under stand a logic of a person just seeing the long head line of a person. ie., laymen have long head line and long index finger!

Hello again anithapalm!

Well, philosophically speaking: in the perspective of this discussion about the thumb (+ hand map ) in general we could describe the writings of the authors here as materials that reflect some attempt (by the authors) to describe their findings during practical verification.

However, this topic is focussed on the fact that those materials (the writings of authors in books) contradiction each other regarding some points... and then it requires a further analysis of the writings itself in order to investigate whether the authors have used proper 'reasoning'.


PS. Sorry, again, I think you are trying to discussion some aspects which relate to the practice of hand reading... please, you are welcome to start a new topic in order to discuss how to read 'logic' from the hand. Okay?

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:

Patti wrote:Keywords for Little Finger - Auricular Finger (ear - typically fits inside the ear) relates to hearing and listening. The key to good communication is listening. Listening is a receptive inner quality. (my keywords in bold)

Listening is 60% of Communication

Well, it depends on what you mean with 'listening'... if voice-pitch is included then the 60% could indeed be a good estimate.

Unfortunately, in this discussion we all depend on each others reading & writing abilities - which is in this forum situation the alternative for 'listening' and 'speaking words'.

Thanks Patti - by the way, next to the pinky (mind) I think also the hypothenar (senses/body language + emotion/voice pitch: see my new map) plays a major role regarding 'communiciation'.

Yes, the example for this group would relate the listening aspect to reading between the lines, the innuendos, choices of words, font, color, and things like that in people's text to pick up on the expression and tone behind the words. The act of being receptive to someone else's output. Reading a post is a taking in energy and writing a post is an outward energy. Both are forms of communication.

When describing fingers we look at qualities such as smooth or knobby knuckles, blunt or pointy fingertips, and few or many horizontal lines for how information flows in and out.

p.s.: Regarding the forum aspect , you missed the humor or point in my communication. It was a response to your post saying that you couldn't find anything *published* on my website, so I added my comment to a webpage and added the link here. My communication was meant to be humorous, but you apparently didn't receive it that way.

Hi Patti,

Thank you for explaining what you had in mind.
But are you suggesting that I am not listening to your arguments? Or Lynn's arguments?

Is so, please summarize what you perceive/think/assume that I have missed...


PS. What is your intend regarding the info that you published on your website? How do you think that the info about the so-called 'auricular finger' could become helpful in this discussion?

Patti wrote:Last night reading hands at an event, I consciously tried to look at the ulnar side as outer and the radial side as inner and the readings could only be accurately done in the normal sense of the inner is being projected outwardly and the outer is being received... I'm simply defining which to which degree.

Martijn, have you made many attempts to actually putting your theory into practice, yet?

Patti wrote:Perhaps use a famous person that we all have a good idea of their inner and outer worlds (as best anyone could know someone else's inner world)

Then illustrate how this new chart works.

Patti wrote:Definitely agree that our senses go beyond the fingertips!

Julius Spier connects the senses with the index finger, and the index finger to the outer world.

Patti, it's very interesting to see that Spier associates the index finger (radial side) to represent the 'world finger'... however, Johnny Fincham uses the words 'world stage' (and 'public stage') for the upper ulnar palmar quadrant - which relates to ulnar side of the hand.

But there is a bit of 'controversy' regarding Spier's word choice, because he also describes the ring finger to represent (page 28): "The range of the finger compromises the emotional domain as related to the entire environment, with the exception of the partner-relationship".

NOTICE: Spier associates on page 30 the pinky with 'partner-relationship' where he suggests that 'voice' and 'language' are sort of the tools to establish the sexual manifestation of the life-force (which he associates with the thumb).

So, the name 'world-finger' for the index finger could be a bit misleading here... because Spier also associates the ring finger with "the emotional domain as related to the entire environment", and the pinky finger with ''partner relationship'' - which of course also relates to the outer world!

But there's a more specific problem...


There are more clear 'contradictions' between Spier's guidelines & Fincham's guidelines regarding the theme that we are discussing in this topic (inner- vs outer world), which become even more explicit visible regarding the descriptions presented by Spier & Fincham for the LONG FINGER FINGER:

- Spier writes for the long ring finger (The Hands of Chirldren, p.28): "In case it is much longer than the index an over-emphasis of the emotions is indicated, a too exclusive preoccupation with one's own world and a lack of appreciation of the values of the outside world of realities. This may lead to a too strongly stressed INTROVERSION of the emotions, particularly if the long ring finger has a decided inward bend toward the palm."

- However, Fincham writes for the long ring finger (Palmistry: From Apprentice to Pro in Twenty-Four Hours, p.198): "Extroverts naturally hold their finger widely spread. They often have grainy skin and a long peacock finger [= long ring finger]."

(Fincham also associates a long mirror (index) finger with introversion!)


I think the contradiction between the works of Spier & Fincham is quite obvious!!!

By the way, my recent Extraversion study indicates that Fincham's theory is much more likely correct.

Extraversion has been associated with high testosterone levels in young males. And Prof. Manning e.g. makes a report in his 2nd book [The Finger Book, p.44] that women with women with a low 2D:4D digit ratio were found to score high on Extraversion (though I should add here that there are more studies with conflicting results, but the most significant result confirmed the link between high extraversion and a low 2D:4D digit ratio).

So, I think it is important that the controversy that we are discussing is not focussed on just the palm... because the example that I have described above indicates that Spier's work is actually very controversial because his associations for the ring finger are not only disputable in the perspective of.Fincham's work, I think that actually many hand reading authors & hand readers will dispute Spier's guidelines for the ring finger - and I think Lynn is actually one of them (because she e.g. has described that the 2D:4D digit ratio findings make sense for her!

Now, Patti... I am looking forward to hear your response, because things are obviously much more complex than your reference to the work of Spier suggested!




PS. Let's be ware of the fact that Spier has background in psychoanalytic psychology, which could explain why his theories have some similarities with the other 'psychoanalytic authors': Yael Haft-Pomrock & Arnold Holtzman!

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:Last night reading hands at an event, I consciously tried to look at the ulnar side as outer and the radial side as inner and the readings could only be accurately done in the normal sense of the inner is being projected outwardly and the outer is being received... I'm simply defining which to which degree.

Martijn, have you made many attempts to actually putting your theory into practice, yet?

Patti, I am not discussing 'my theory'... because from the start I have only been discussing the words & concepts described in the books.

I think the key-words in my picture(s) for the individual fingers are representative for the key-words being used in far most hand reading systems.

Again, these are not my key-words... I am just the observer who reports that the key-words in the books tell a story on it's own, especially regarding the pinky!!


Patti, earlier in this discussion I have asked you to present comon used key-words from the hand reading literature which could suggest that the pinky also relates to the inner world (in the perspective of the fact that words like 'communicaton', 'intimacy' & 'social connections/relationships' have most commonly been used)... but I don't think you have found one.

Correct?


PS. Regarding your anecdotal report about your experience last night.. you speak of 'the normal sense' - but this only directly relates to your own personal perspective that you have developed over the years.

(But it's not easy for me to understand what your 'holistic' approach really implicates, because even though you have made a few comment regarding the words used by various authors... I don't think you have substantiated your own view with any specific key-words or ideas at all... so I have no idea how you 'tested' the outcome of my literature-approach last night!)

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, it's very interesting to see that Spier associates the index finger (radial side) to represent the 'world finger'... however, Johnny Fincham uses the words 'world stage' (and 'public stage') for the upper ulnar palmar quadrant - which relates to ulnar side of the hand.

But there is a bit of 'controversy' regarding Spier's word choice, because he also describes the ring finger to represent (page 28): "The range of the finger compromises the emotional domain as related to the entire environment, with the exception of the partner-relationship".

NOTICE: Spier associates on page 30 the pinky with 'partner-relationship' where he suggests that 'voice' and 'language' are sort of the tools to establish the sexual manifestation of the life-force (which he associates with the thumb).

So, the name 'world-finger' for the index finger could be a bit misleading here... because Spier also associates the ring finger with "the emotional domain as related to the entire environment", and the pinky finger with ''partner relationship'' - which of course also relates to the outer world!

But there's a more specific problem...


There are more clear 'contradictions' between Spier's guidelines & Fincham's guidelines regarding the theme that we are discussing in this topic (inner- vs outer world), which become even more explicit visible regarding the descriptions presented by Spier & Fincham for the LONG FINGER FINGER:

- Spier writes for the long ring finger (The Hands of Chirldren, p.28): "In case it is much longer than the index an over-emphasis of the emotions is indicated, a too exclusive preoccupation with one's own world and a lack of appreciation of the values of the outside world of realities. This may lead to a too strongly stressed INTROVERSION of the emotions, particularly if the long ring finger has a decided inward bend toward the palm."

- However, Fincham writes for the long ring finger (Palmistry: From Apprentice to Pro in Twenty-Four Hours, p.198): "Extroverts naturally hold their finger widely spread. They often have grainy skin and a long peacock finger [= long ring finger]."

(Fincham also associates a long mirror (index) finger with introversion!)


I think the contradiction between the works of Spier & Fincham is quite obvious!!!

By the way, my recent Extraversion study indicates that Fincham's theory is much more likely correct.

Extraversion has been associated with high testosterone levels in young males. And Prof. Manning e.g. makes a report in his 2nd book [The Finger Book, p.44] that women with women with a low 2D:4D digit ratio were found to score high on Extraversion (though I should add here that there are more studies with conflicting results, but the most significant result confirmed the link between high extraversion and a low 2D:4D digit ratio).

So, I think it is important that the controversy that we are discussing is not focussed on just the palm... because the example that I have described above indicates that Spier's work is actually very controversial because his associations for the ring finger are not only disputable in the perspective of.Fincham's work, I think that actually many hand reading authors & hand readers will dispute Spier's guidelines for the ring finger - and I think Lynn is actually one of them (because she e.g. has described that the 2D:4D digit ratio findings make sense for her!

Now, Patti... I am looking forward to hear your response, because things are obviously much more complex than your reference to the work of Spier suggested!




PS. Let's be ware of the fact that Spier has background in psychoanalytic psychology, which could explain why his theories have some similarities with the other 'psychoanalytic authors': Yael Haft-Pomrock & Arnold Holtzman!

Martijn (admin) wrote:

But there's a more specific problem...


There are more clear 'contradictions' between Spier's guidelines & Fincham's guidelines regarding the theme that we are discussing in this topic (inner- vs outer world), which become even more explicit visible regarding the descriptions presented by Spier & Fincham for the LONG FINGER FINGER:

- Spier writes for the long ring finger (The Hands of Chirldren, p.28): "In case it is much longer than the index an over-emphasis of the emotions is indicated, a too exclusive preoccupation with one's own world and a lack of appreciation of the values of the outside world of realities. This may lead to a too strongly stressed INTROVERSION of the emotions, particularly if the long ring finger has a decided inward bend toward the palm."

- However, Fincham writes for the long ring finger (Palmistry: From Apprentice to Pro in Twenty-Four Hours, p.198): "Extroverts naturally hold their finger widely spread. They often have grainy skin and a long peacock finger [= long ring finger]."

(Fincham also associates a long mirror (index) finger with introversion!)


I think the contradiction between the works of Spier & Fincham is quite obvious!!!

Martijn (admin) wrote:

- Spier writes for the long ring finger (The Hands of Chirldren, p.28): "In case it is much longer than the index an over-emphasis of the emotions is indicated, a too exclusive preoccupation with one's own world and a lack of appreciation of the values of the outside world of realities. This may lead to a too strongly stressed INTROVERSION of the emotions, particularly if the long ring finger has a decided inward bend toward the palm."

Sadly, I have no time to get involved in forum discussions, though would love to get into them some day when I stop writing.
Basically, I don't use the quadrants, as they never worked and no two palmists ever agreed on quadrant order, so I never do the balance of the quadrant order thing we used to do. I denote the quad areas as :

ivory tower - the personal world, ego, order, ownership, ambition, possessions, control, influence.

outer world quadrant - communication, social connections, the outer world, business and financial skills, mental energy, other people,the social world.

sea of subcon quadrant - the collective subconscious, the psyche, the deep ‘well’ of subterranean emotions and impulses, the ‘inner child’, intuition.tribal memory, inner knowing,dreams intuitions

primal home,body quadrant - the ‘battery’ of stored nurturing and physical energy, fecundity, joie de vivre, ebullience, sensual and reproductive drives, sense of belonging,family,body physicality.

Hope this helps,
JF

Lynn wrote:I've had a reply from Johnny Fincham.

Sadly, I have no time to get involved in forum discussions, though would love to get into them some day when I stop writing.
Basically, I don't use the quadrants, as they never worked and no two palmists ever agreed on quadrant order, so I never do the balance of the quadrant order thing we used to do. I denote the quad areas as :

ivory tower - the personal world, ego, order, ownership, ambition, possessions, control, influence.

outer world quadrant - communication, social connections, the outer world, business and financial skills, mental energy, other people,the social world.

sea of subcon quadrant - the collective subconscious, the psyche, the deep ‘well’ of subterranean emotions and impulses, the ‘inner child’, intuition.tribal memory, inner knowing,dreams intuitions

primal home,body quadrant - the ‘battery’ of stored nurturing and physical energy, fecundity, joie de vivre, ebullience, sensual and reproductive drives, sense of belonging,family,body physicality.

Hope this helps,
JF

But maybe Johnny's answer does include a clue:

"... and no two palmists ever agreed on quadrant order"

Because these words suggest that he is aware that his quadrant-writings are not similar to the writings of the other 'elemental' authors (I could historically list them as: Fred Gettings, T. Dukes, Christopher Jones, Johnny Fincham & Jennifer Hirsch).

Lynn wrote:

But maybe Johnny's answer does include a clue:

"... and no two palmists ever agreed on quadrant order"

Because these words suggest that he is aware that his quadrant-writings are not similar to the writings of the other 'elemental' authors (I could historically list them as: Fred Gettings, T. Dukes, Christopher Jones, Johnny Fincham & Jennifer Hirsch).

No he's talking about when we used to measure quadrants in C.Soc - a tedious process of counting squares on acetate placed over a handprint, to determine the area of each quadrant, then put them in order of size.

Anyway Lynn... did Johnny's answer become anyhow helpful for you to understand his word-choice?

(If not, it would best to specifying your question... maybe your question was not very specific?)

Patti wrote:
Why did you change the goal posts regarding the topic? It was presented in regards to not using philosophical ideas to describe the hand and the title is "The Thumb Represents the Inner Essence of Man".

You ask me to look through my literature to confirm your thoughts with keywords that substantiate your own still to be proven idea. It's your theory... you should support it yourself.

I will however respond to your request for an older publication.

This is from 1899 Holmes W. Merton "Descriptive Mentality"

Patti wrote:In regards to Spiers comment about the little finger being mainly related to the 'partner-relationship' and the sexual life, I think there's more to it than that.

He also states on page 30 "As far as its position and relationship to the other fingers are concerned it is usually somewhat concealed or covered by the other fingers because it expresses the function which is a most personal and intimate feature in the life of man."

He goes on to say: "The thumb which indicates the life-force as such and the little finger which expresses the sexual manifestation of this force occupy the two extreme positions in the hand."

Patti, we have already talked about the word 'intimacy'... and I think the word 'intimate feature' is likewisely related to the expression & manifestation of sexuality (directed at a partner).

Let's also be aware that in those days (when Spier wrote his writing) it was not common to speak about sexuality at all... and this could explain why it got associated with the 'personal' inner world. But one can say that today sexuality has become much more associated with the social world (in large parts of the western society it is even no longer associated with the boundaries of marriage & relationships... it became accepted in the much wider social dimension!).

I think this could explain why the association 'ulnar side = inner world' only became manifest in the books published after the 70's.

Due the to sexual revolution (60's-80's) the paradigma of the 'inner world' has changed: sexuality became much more an 'outer-world' issue!

And in this perspective, we get FORCED to define things very precisely regarding what the 'inner world' & 'outer world' really concerns!

Patti wrote:I also don't think Spier's is describing a long ring finger as an indication of introversion. If the energy of the ring finger is more related to self, then you have the show-off, the person who has to be the center of attention, and other types who love to hear themselves carry on.

Martijn (admin) wrote:Anyway Lynn... did Johnny's answer become anyhow helpful for you to understand his word-choice?

(If not, it would best to specifying your question... maybe your question was not very specific?)