Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

sundar Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:19 am

Lynn wrote:
zaobhand wrote:Well said Kiwihand. I wonder why people are still butting their heads against the wall?...

hi Boaz, can you explain what you mean exactl?

I too like the precise and decent opinion of kiwihands. But expect to know the elaborated opinion of zeobhand.

chakraborty Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:04 am

Martijn has good methodology of discussion / debate. He has a clear idea about what is acceptable as evidence /authority and what is not. Also, which word means / relates to what. Apparently, Lynn and Patti understand that part very well & thrash out the issues.

These evidence / authority part (acceptable to Martijn) is unknown to many of the forum members. Hence, many a times, an evidence presented to Martijn becomes irrelevant to him.

A theory need to be tested against observed result. Even a single fact which can not be explained by the theory can vanquish the theory. Hence, the issue raised by Sundar is a practical one.

But I am going off-topic as well.

regards

Chakraborty

**Parender** Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:35 am

Lynn wrote:
zaobhand wrote:Well said Kiwihand. I wonder why people are still butting their heads against the wall?...

hi Boaz, can you explain what you mean exactly?

Hi Lynn,
How do you do?
What I think it means self injuring or self abusing just like hitting a wall with one’s head and get hurt badly in return (wasting time in useless arguments). Zaobhand perhaps wanted to know why some people do so often and invite strong criticism. It means people who do not learn even from their own past mistakes. Zahobhand can explain the meaning in more detail in better way.
Parender

P.S.
Whoever might be doing this -“still butting their heads against the wall”, but one thing is sure that “If you want a place in the sun, you've got to put up with a few blisters.” - Abigail Van Buren - and this is happening here.

Perhaps he meant one must not do such acts again and again which can invite harsh criticism, (cause, and induce someone to criticize strongly).

Parender

Patti Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:38 pm

I think what Kiwi and Boaz have tried to point out is that the criticism from Martijn to me was not constructive but was insulting and rude.

Because of this and because it was reconfirmed by Martijn in a post yesterday, I sent my resignation as moderator in a PM.

No more head banging for me! sunny

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:28 pm

Patti wrote:I think what Kiwi and Boaz have tried to point out is that the criticism from Martijn to me was not constructive but was insulting and rude.

Because of this and because it was reconfirmed by Martijn in a post yesterday, I sent my resignation as moderator in a PM.

No more head banging for me!

Patti, I regret your decision but I respect your choice.

Nevertheless, I would like to make it noticed here more explicit that Lynn has pointed out (yesterday) that your own posts in this topic were not free from words that can be taken as an insult as well:

Lynn wrote:
(PS edit - reading thru it, to be fair I can also see some insults to Martijn from Patti's side.)

(And ... Patti, can I remind you about your deleted post somewhere halfway this topic: after my PM request to re-view it because it only included content on a rather personal level, you must have found a good reason to withdraw that post completely. So, please don't make it look like as if your own posts were all 'clean' in this topic. Especially, since in the past it has happened many times when you and I ended in a discussion 'in the heat of a debate'... often there was use of strong language from both sides. And it would kind of become an act of self-denial if you would deny anything of what I describe here in indigo)

Actually, I think it is a matter of arbitrary perception of how to qualify my choice of words - especially since the context of my use of those words does show that I have presented clear arguments why I started using those words (basically those words served to express that regarding your final 3 visual examples taken from the scientific literature I could not make much sense from your observations at all):

Visual example 1+3 ) I have used the word 'absurd' twice - in both passages I have used the word 'absurd' to express that I was not able to follow your input at all (in both examples you've pointed out to visual details that were not mentioned in the accessory comments in the books at all + you also did not explain at all why you perceived those observations supporting your position), see the following posts:

"I think your claim regarding the picture can therefore be described as absurd; because if you had studied the full picture by detail... you could have noticed that for example in the same region the line which represents the boundaries of the 3rd metacarpal bone also are not drawn with a stable colored line at both sides of the thenar crease - see especially the 2nd picture below!"
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p165-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#22533

"It looks like another absurd attempt to suggest that this info puts any support to your individual approach"
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p165-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#22535

Visual example 2) And I have used the word 'delusional' once in this post between the two posts that I have just mentioned (because you only had pointed out to an illustration with perfectly normal lines, so I think there was nothing to argue about at all... as I saw no basis at all for any kind of claim that such a picture could serve to present evidence for any aspect discussed in this topic):

"So I could describe it as delusional to suggest that this picture presents a clue about to understand the lines that we have discussed in this topic."
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p165-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#22534

PS. In general, especially in times of emotion... people tend to feel insulted easily and nearly always there is 'ego' involved (therefore I can only hope that this post from my side is taken an explanation only regarding the process in this discussion - and I would prefer it not to be taken as a complaint against anyone).

Patti Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:40 pm

And I did remove the post when you said you were offended.

The reason I didn't reply to your last post that was insulting is because you wrote it as a distraction.

The illustration that you claimed was merely an artist drawing and not relevant was in the same book and right next to the same illustration that you used to make your point against me. If that illustration was suitable for you but not for me, then it was obvious you were playing word games and hoping that most of the people here would not bother to check my references and resources and take your word for it that I was absurd.

Well, some people here are smarter than you think.

Banging heads against walls. Yeah. People complain because there are no new ideas offered. But when new ideas are offered (ideas that I have personally worked with for nearly two decades - and use in my readings here) instead of valid and constructive criticism or support, I am met with quotes from outdated palmistry books and insults.

Patti Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:46 pm

p.s.: the wind is out of my sails for sharing any more on this topic at this forum.

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:28 pm

Patti wrote:And I did remove the post when you said you were offended.

The reason I didn't reply to your last post that was insulting is because you wrote it as a distraction.

The illustration that you claimed was merely an artist drawing and not relevant was in the same book and right next to the same illustration that you used to make your point against me. If that illustration was suitable for you but not for me, then it was obvious you were playing word games and hoping that most of the people here would not bother to check my references and resources and take your word for it that I was absurd.

Well, some people here are smarter than you think.

Banging heads against walls. Yeah. People complain because there are no new ideas offered. But when new ideas are offered (ideas that I have personally worked with for nearly two decades - and use in my readings here) instead of valid and constructive criticism or support, I am met with quotes from outdated palmistry books and insults.

Patti, I really wonder why you think that I was trying to distract anyone's attention.

Because I have clearly described that the first picture describes the relationship between the path of the creases and the hand bones... and this picture shows that the life line tends to end at the radial side of the wrist (in the zone between the wrist bones), see:
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p150-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#22507
Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 9 Hand-a10

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 9 Hand-a10

(I could even specify my observation: both the most common end point of the life line just above the radial wrist zone AND the less common end point of the life line just above the central point... reflect the tendency for the life line to end in a region close to some of the borders between the wrist bones; but the same principle could very well be true for the fate line - which kind of explains why both lines can sometimes fuse or cross each other)

And therefore I think it is obvious that the picture does not support your view about where the life line tends to end:

Patti wrote:
Medical texts describe the thenar as starting/ending above the wrist at the center.

Because that 'central' zone is not the most common end point for the thenar crease at all!

(I think this should serve as enough proof... that I was not trying to 'distract' at all, because you used that picture only by pointing out to a vague visual irregularity in the thenar crease that is featured with a likewise vague detail in the underlying 3rd metacarpal bone... while obviously both visual characteristics do not represent what is seen in far most life lines, and the text does not present any clue that this detail in the thenar crease was presented with any purpose - and you know yourself very well that such a specific irregularity has never ever been described explicit in the scientific literature nor the palmistry literature - especially since we know from prenatal studies that the thenar crease tends to develop from the radial side of the palm towards the wrist... and not in the opposite direction!)

flower

**Lynn** Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:44 pm

Patti wrote:I think what Kiwi and Boaz have tried to point out is that the criticism from Martijn to me was not constructive but was insulting and rude.

Because of this and because it was reconfirmed by Martijn in a post yesterday, I sent my resignation as moderator in a PM.

No more head banging for me!

Patti, As you know, I was surprised and very sad to receive your resignation P.M. After further PMs I can't persuade you to stay, so I respect your decision, but I will miss you as co-moderator here. hug

sundar Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:16 pm

Once in every thirty year, saturn get exalted in libra. Changes become inevitable.

Patti Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:28 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
The directions of the branches at the wrist area of the thenar crease are not based on whether it's a fate line or a life line, they relate to nerves and the direction they go.

"They noted that a thenar branch of the median nerve with a transligamentous course correlates in a significantly high number of cases with ulnar terminal branches of the longitudinal thenar crease. In contrast, radial terminal extensions of the thenar crease suggest an extraligamentous course of the nerve."
"Surgical Anatomy of the Hand" Schmidt - Lanz

They are called the radial and ulnar terminal extensions of the thenar crease.

In palmistry that includes a basis in science, this short inner line should not really count as a short life line if there is another crease defining the boundary of the thenar pad.

Patti, the quote (from "Surgical Anatomy of the Hand" Schmidt - Lanz) only describes a relationship between the terminations of the thenar crease and the underlying nerve system.

The sagittal crease is not mentioned at all... so I don't understand how this info could help us for finding the nature of the line - as we can not study the nerves from a hand print!

It looks like another absurd attempt to suggest that this info puts any support to your individual approach (I have not seen other participants sharing likewise speculative ideas).

Here is just one clear example of your rude and uncalled for behavior.

My resource is very clear that they are describing the creases that branch from the thenar crease to the ulnar and radial sides of the wrist. These creases can in high percentages relate to the directions of the nerves underneath.

The book is a guidebook for hand surgeons. They are pointing out visual superficial signposts for what is most often found below the skin surface.

Who is absurd here?

Patti Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:33 pm

sundar wrote:Once in every thirty year, saturn get exalted in libra. Changes become inevitable.

Along with Saturn return (natal Saturn in Libra conjuncting Sun) lol!

sundar Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:34 pm

Parender wrote:
Lynn wrote:
zaobhand wrote:Well said Kiwihand. I wonder why people are still butting their heads against the wall?...

hi Boaz, can you explain what you mean exactly?

Hi Lynn,
How do you do?
What I think it means self injuring or self abusing just like hitting a wall with one’s head and get hurt badly in return (wasting time in useless arguments). Zaobhand perhaps wanted to know why some people do so often and invite strong criticism. It means people who do not learn even from their own past mistakes. Zahobhand can explain the meaning in more detail in better way.
Parender

P.S.
Whoever might be doing this -“still butting their heads against the wall”, but one thing is sure that “If you want a place in the sun, you've got to put up with a few blisters.” - Abigail Van Buren - and this is happening here.

Perhaps he meant one must not do such acts again and again which can invite harsh criticism, (cause, and induce someone to criticize strongly).

Parender

Sardarji, This was a best post among these heated discussion. But you have posted it in wrong time and in wrong situation. Just i feel like reading sardarji jokes. And thanks for your sincere explanation. This made many to :-) and some to :-(

Every role is important in a situation! :-)

sundar Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:41 pm

Patti wrote:
sundar wrote:Once in every thirty year, saturn get exalted in libra. Changes become inevitable.

Along with Saturn return (natal Saturn in Libra conjuncting Sun)

Now sun stays in its own house leo. . But exalted saturn conjuct sun is a leading feature for defamation in general!

Patti Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:49 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, maybe you are far too much ... and loosing track with 'the obvious', because when we take a look at the life line example in most books about hand reading then we see usually a life line that is ending at the RADIAL side of the palm!

Now, I think you have so far in this topic presented only a few examples of scientific sources which describe a general description for the path of the normal path of the thenar crease.

(I noticed that Lynn also started asking questions about where you actually found your assumptions/conclusions regarding what your quotes describe - and I likewise wonder about the origins of your statement regarding what 'surgeons' would describe)

Because when we dive into sources which present more detailed info about where the thenar tends to develop exactly... a very different picture rises compared to your assumptions regarding the rather general descriptions in the scientific works that you presented earlier (such as your incorrect assumption above - labeled with red color).

This example describes why your assumption is incorrect:

Because due to the bone structure the thenar crease actually tends to follow a path ending at the upper radial side of the wrist due to the underlying bone structure, see the picture below.

Source:
'Hand and Wrist' (page 2) - http://books.google.nl/books?hl=en&lr=&id=vIgv982Vkt0C&

Here you argued that the thenar crease ends on the radial side of the wrist and used this artist's illustration to try to prove it. Yet, I have quoted from the same source and used illustrations sitting right next to yours that ironically contradict you. You must have seen them when you looked for support for yourself.

Actually, it seemed to me that you did notice and you used words like absurd, phantasy, ludicrous and so forth to intimidate me, confuse others and distract from any point that I was making using valid resouces to back myself as you were left to support yourself with Benham.

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:01 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, maybe you are far too much ... and loosing track with 'the obvious', because when we take a look at the life line example in most books about hand reading then we see usually a life line that is ending at the RADIAL side of the palm!

Now, I think you have so far in this topic presented only a few examples of scientific sources which describe a general description for the path of the normal path of the thenar crease.

(I noticed that Lynn also started asking questions about where you actually found your assumptions/conclusions regarding what your quotes describe - and I likewise wonder about the origins of your statement regarding what 'surgeons' would describe)

Because when we dive into sources which present more detailed info about where the thenar tends to develop exactly... a very different picture rises compared to your assumptions regarding the rather general descriptions in the scientific works that you presented earlier (such as your incorrect assumption above - labeled with red color).

This example describes why your assumption is incorrect:

Because due to the bone structure the thenar crease actually tends to follow a path ending at the upper radial side of the wrist due to the underlying bone structure, see the picture below.

Source:
'Hand and Wrist' (page 2) - http://books.google.nl/books?hl=en&lr=&id=vIgv982Vkt0C&

Here you argued that the thenar crease ends on the radial side of the wrist and used this artist's illustration to try to prove it. Yet, I have quoted from the same source and used illustrations sitting right next to yours that ironically contradict you. You must have seen them when you looked for support for yourself.
...

Patti, you are referring to this book:
http://books.google.nl/books?id=vIgv982Vkt0C

Now, the illustration right next to this illustration on page 2 of the book does not show any hand line characteristics at all. So, unless you specify which specific picture(s) in that book are presenting info that contradicts my position... your claim here is not substantiated.

So I welcome you to specify which other pictures you have in mind.

Patti Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:03 pm

sundar wrote:
Patti wrote:
sundar wrote:Once in every thirty year, saturn get exalted in libra. Changes become inevitable.

Along with Saturn return (natal Saturn in Libra conjuncting Sun)

Now sun stays in its own house leo. . But exalted saturn conjuct sun is a leading feature for defamation in general!

Interesting! I had recently come to the realization that sharing on forums publicly was a less positive experience and outcome than I envisioned and can lead to defamation rather than popularity. Might be why those that have written their thoughts in volumns rather than posts are exalted. I am often reminded of these wise words:

From "Thus Spake Zarathurstra" Nietzsche

Yea, I recognize Zarathustra. Pure is his eye, and no loathing
lurketh about his mouth. Goeth he not along like a dancer?
Altered is Zarathustra; a child hath Zarathustra become; an awakened
one is Zarathustra: what wilt thou do in the land of the sleepers?
As in the sea hast thou lived in solitude, and it hath borne thee
up. Alas, wilt thou now go ashore? Alas, wilt thou again drag thy body
thyself?"
Zarathustra answered: "I love mankind."
"Why," said the saint, "did I go into the forest and the desert? Was
it not because I loved men far too well?
Now I love God: men, I do not love. Man is a thing too imperfect for
me. Love to man would be fatal to me."
Zarathustra answered: "What spake I of love! I am bringing gifts
unto men."
"Give them nothing," said the saint. "Take rather part of their
load, and carry it along with them- that will be most agreeable unto
them: if only it be agreeable unto thee!
If, however, thou wilt give unto them, give them no more than an
alms, and let them also beg for it!"
"No," replied Zarathustra, "I give no alms. I am not poor enough for
that."
The saint laughed at Zarathustra, and spake thus: "Then see to it
that they accept thy treasures! They are distrustful of anchorites,
and do not believe that we come with gifts.

Patti Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:11 pm

sundar Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:23 pm

Forum and members can be metaphor like this:

Blind cats are roaming around in the dark room. Once if the cat get back it's vision, It will leave the dark. Likewise, Peoples here dont know what they want to learn. Still, they have no other hope until they find better source. Till then, Let them roam around.

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:24 pm

Patti wrote:

Patti, please describe by detail... how does this picture contradict my position?

sundar Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:31 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:

Patti, please describe by detail... how does this picture contradict my position?

It is the universal sign for good bye!

Patti Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:34 pm

sundar wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:

Patti, please describe by detail... how does this picture contradict my position?

It is the universal sign for good bye!

Patti Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:57 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:

Patti, please describe by detail... how does this picture contradict my position?

Simple. From multiple choices, from multiple sources, you used an example showing a thenar crease curving radially around the thumb. It wouldn't have served your purpose to use this one which was readily available.

The combination of the various resources illustrate that the thenar crease ends at the wrist but has branches that extend both around the thenar eminence above the wrist crease, as well as ulnarly, which follow nerves. This relationship of these branches and their apparent relationship to the direction of nerves, is different than the thenar crease being influenced by two pads.

There was nothing absurd about my comment and no reason for it to be broken down and deliberately misconstrued.

**Kiran.Katawa** Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:37 am

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:I think what Kiwi and Boaz have tried to point out is that the criticism from Martijn to me was not constructive but was insulting and rude.

Because of this and because it was reconfirmed by Martijn in a post yesterday, I sent my resignation as moderator in a PM.

No more head banging for me!

Patti, As you know, I was surprised and very sad to receive your resignation P.M. After further PMs I can't persuade you to stay, so I respect your decision, but I will miss you as co-moderator here.

Hi Patti, its really sad to know that you're leaving the group!
Oh...nooo!

**jeanette** Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:33 pm

Due to health reasons I have not been able to post on the forum and these issues are still present. However, struggling I am making this post.
What has happened with Patti is dreadful. The way she has been treated is totally unaccaptable and to think a while back Lynn told me, and I was naive enough to believe it was that this was all friendly discussion and quoted the Cyber Cafe etc. Sounde like the Old Boys Club to me and I am sure other members feeling we were outsiders. I am totally puzzled as to what you really want from the members and have this feeling that you really want to say would all novices with your idiotic questions and opinions please remove yourself from this forum and I don't know why you Martjin have not said this, as you never spare anybody's feelings with your, subtle as sledgehammer, comments.
Patti was great and I just loved when I saw a response from my post coming up for I knew I would get a civilised and helpful response and she gave so much time and was a regular poster. The information she gave to us was wonderful.Another member said he dreaded seeing the red writing coming up and so did I, another likened it to the Spanish Inquisition and I think we would have got a fairer judgement from the Spanish Inquistion. We learned so much from Patti and where are we now. Left with you and Lynn, who is totally on your side.Before I was unable to post I noticed she was responding like you. eg I don't understand your question, what is the point you are making etc. Can I say the members here are decent, sincere people only trying to learn and looking for help and civility.I will now go and take a Valium tablet to help cope with the dreaded red writing coming up.
Jeanette.

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