Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Patti Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:02 am

Christopher Jones wrote:Patti - how do they describe that process then for a simple arch which has no core??

If you mean Galton, it's called Primary. You can see it in both charts.

If you mean the animated computer generated model, I don't know. Martijn uploaded it.

**anand_palm** Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:54 pm

Hello Patti

I was reading through the galton system, few thinghs which confuses me, does the centre C is same horizontal line of two triiradius. He mention that draw a verical line passing through C. The pattern he is trying to categorize is based on idea that how these pattern are connected to the tririadius through which it can be identified whether there has been seperate system formed. Like for example WSw and VBV would indicate two ridge systems have been formed (due to impact of the triraddi (meeting point of three ridge system)) like wise SW and BV would also form two systems. Wherein the impact of W and V would make the difference. By using this system loop would fit in the category wherein you either have W or V. and others would fit in a category of a W and V combinations with S and B.
Depending upon the the continuty of S to w and V and B to w and to v the interpration of charecterstic may change.

The system looks good. But some questions are still there

1) How would you categorize peacock

2) Why did he choose the concept of having upper and lower points

3) Does symetricity of tririadius play a role in categorizing

I guess the more i have to think i may have a lot more questions

Thumb up

patti

Thanks
anand
Thumbs up!

Patti Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:34 pm

anand_palm wrote:Hello Patti

I was reading through the galton system, few thinghs which confuses me, does the centre C is same horizontal line of two triiradius. He mention that draw a verical line passing through C. The pattern he is trying to categorize is based on idea that how these pattern are connected to the tririadius through which it can be identified whether there has been seperate system formed. Like for example WSw and VBV would indicate two ridge systems have been formed (due to impact of the triraddi (meeting point of three ridge system)) like wise SW and BV would also form two systems. Wherein the impact of W and V would make the difference. By using this system loop would fit in the category wherein you either have W or V. and others would fit in a category of a W and V combinations with S and B.
Depending upon the the continuty of S to w and V and B to w and to v the interpration of charecterstic may change.

The system looks good. But some questions are still there

1) How would you categorize peacock

2) Why did he choose the concept of having upper and lower points

3) Does symetricity of tririadius play a role in categorizing

I guess the more i have to think i may have a lot more questions

patti

Thanks
anand

1)The peacocks eye fits inside the plain loop. The inner ridges have formed as a whorl or sometimes they close together creating a teardrop shape in the enclosure.
2) ask him Wink

3) the triradius was just being noticed in this system. He had discovered that the pattern forms between two ridges that parted ways from each other. This is most likely where the wording used by the FBI relating to "two innermost parallel ridges" came from.

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 Galton10

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 Galton10

**Christopher Jones** Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:00 pm

[quote="Patti"]
The animated illustration basically works for a whorl and doesn't consider the mechanisms involved in other patterns.[quote]

This is my point - the 'swelling theory of dermatoglyphic formation' is a pseudo-explanation derived only from looking at whorls and not taking into account any of the other patterns. Any theory that is worth considering needs to be able to account for the formation of all the fingerprint patterns - and this just doesn't.

As a result, this becomes just another unjustifiable - and completely unscientific -explanation.

**Martijn (admin)** Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:19 pm

I will join this discussion with a few more comments at a later moment, but for the moment I would like to add a few more animations which show some of the mechanisms that involved in the development of various whorl sizes (and how ridge fields develop: see the 2 pictures at the bottom):

(More pictures are available at: http://www.clpex.com/animation.htm )

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 Smalwhrl

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 Smalwhrl

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 Medwhorl

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 Lrgwhorl

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 Fusion

This animation represents the currently accepted theory that localized cellular proliferations grow together into what subsequently appear as ridges at the epidermal / dermal junction at approximately 10.5 weeks estimated gestational age.

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 Minutia

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 Minutia

This animation represents the consensus of the literature in demonstrating the theoretical formation of minutia arising from expansion of the volar surface and the tendency of volar skin during the critical stage to remain continuously ridged. Once secondary ridge formation begins (the red ridges in this animation) at about 16 weeks EGA, the minutia becomes set and the ridges will only increase in size during maturity.

Also, one can try to visualize the ridge order development for a loop and an arch by studying the following picture (which basically follow the same order as seen in a whorl):

(More details are presented at this 'Friction Ridge Biology Lesson': http://beatandrelease.blogspot.com/2010_08_01_archive.html)

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 FetalDev2

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 FetalDev2

Patti Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:55 pm

Christopher,
I agree with you on that one. The computer generated mathematical models have focused on the concept that the tension from a higher pad pulls the pattern into a whorl. Which works for the computer.

But what they leave out which was noted years ago by Kimura and mentioned by a researcher in one of the Chris Plato books is the dimple that forms briefly at the time the pad begins to deflat. It makes sense to me that since the core or center is the first part of the pattern area to form that it forms in this dimple which most likely becomes a slanting downhill depression forming a loop. The lean of the pad determines if it's radial or ulnar. A dimpled area can account for all kinds of patterns including accidental, but tension from the pad size cannot.

Martijn,
Of the two animations showing the rows of ridges forming, I'd agree with the ~~second, or lower one, rather than the first~~ upper rather than lower. The ~~first~~ lower implies that the red ridges fill in the space between already formed ridges. These would be the secondary ridges without sweat pores and they seldom fill in to the degree shown in that image. So it appears misleading without a description.

Patti Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:34 am

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 Fetal-10

Notice where they point out the actual volar pad with the black arrows. These pads in the photo above would just be forming as it's several more weeks before ridges start to appear at the surface.

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 Finger11

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals - Page 3 Finger11

Photos from Human Embryology & Developmental Biology Bruce M. Carlson

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:40 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn,
Of the two animations showing the rows of ridges forming, I'd agree with the second, or lower one, rather than the first. The first implies that the red ridges fill in the space between already formed ridges. These would be the secondary ridges without sweat pores and they seldom fill in to the degree shown in that image. So it appears misleading without a description.

Patti, I have just added the accessory comment ... there is nothing 'misleading' about the picture, but it does require reading the comment.

After explaining that the picture should be understood in the perspective of the accessory comment, do you still perceive the problem?

Patti Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:46 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn,
Of the two animations showing the rows of ridges forming, I'd agree with the second, or lower one, rather than the first. The first implies that the red ridges fill in the space between already formed ridges. These would be the secondary ridges without sweat pores and they seldom fill in to the degree shown in that image. So it appears misleading without a description.

Patti, I have just added the accessory comment ... there is nothing 'misleading' about the picture, but it does require reading the comment.

After explaining that the picture should be understood in the perspective of the accessory comment, do you still perceive the problem?

(I just noticed you changed the locations of the animations so I changed my post accordingly Laughing

)

**Christopher Jones** Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:22 am

The ludicrousness of the 'swelling pads causes fingerprint patterns' is only exaggerated by the inclusion of silly drawings (ie not actual microscopic photographs) of swollen pads displaced radially or ulnarly to 'create' the loop fingerprint patterns ! The absence of evidence and/or the absence of actual data is the giveaway here...

It always reminds me of drawings you find in kids books of what dinosaurs looked like - complete with scales/feathers, colour schemes, skin type and, in the computer generated versions - sound effects too. Amazing..

**anand_palm** Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:35 pm

Hello all

Somehow the discussion is not complete, from what i read from galton classification, i would say double loops would come under whorl system. the only question would be on its interpretation.

Anand

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