Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

sv-b Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:46 pm

Hello martijn, Smile

So called western victorian palmist did not do any invention than mixing up greek , french and indian palmistry together. some english knowing indians are reading the work of cheiro and benham as those books were published in india during the time of british period of india. As i already proved how the western victorian palmists were influenced by indian palmistry during the time of british dominancy in india. but, christopher either exploiting it or due to ignorance makes amateurish comments on indian palmistry.

As i said earlier that the first book publication occured in india around 17 or 18 century. Till then, indians transfered their knowledge through palm leaf manuscripts generation after generation. so, if you or christopher want to clarify anything about ancient indian palmistry, they have to come and make research on it. Instead of that, christopher , being in west, and commenting about indian palmistry with huge ignorance. I suggest christopher to come and decipher the palm leaf manuscripts of india . Later he can understand his mistakes and ignorance.

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:55 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello martijn,

So called western victorian palmist did not do any invention than mixing up greek , french and indian palmistry together. some english knowing indians are reading the work of cheiro and benham as those books were published in india during the time of british period of india. As i already proved how the western victorian palmists were influenced by indian palmistry during the time of british dominancy in india. but, christopher either exploiting it or due to ignorance makes amateurish comments on indian palmistry.

Sorry Stalin, this is only one of your 'repeated' assumptions. You have not provided ANY basis for this assumption (no source at all, no proof at all). While we described the facts that point out to the innovations.

And the facts tell a completely different story (for example: the model of the 7 hand types was developed by d'Arpentigny, before his time any likewise models was never described: neither in the Western literature, nor the Vedic literature).

But the process of this discussion has become worisome, because it shows that you simply prefer to hold on to your private 'beliefs' (and assumptions), in stead of accepting the facts that we shared and presented.

Stalin, I hope that someday ... you will wake up, and accept the facts.

flower

sv-b Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:01 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
stalin.v wrote:Hello martijn,

...
p.s: In the wikepedia link, about cheiro. There is only one influence was given under the Tabular coloum. That is an indian sage. But, Nowhere mentioned about french palmist.

[b]That wikipedia page describes only what is generally known about Cheiro's life....

Where did i ask you question here? Indeed, i answered for your former question that regarding the only influence of cheiro. You appears to be manipulating the truth.

You have just accepted in your own statement that cheiro's influence on indian palmistry how generally known by many peoples!

Doesn't it show you that how western victorian palmists were influenced by indian palmistry? Hope, you will inform this matter to christopher and make himself to correct soon.

**Manfred** Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:04 pm

Dear Martijn,

a by the way fact: Nearly no one uses the 7 type system I talked about with severeal renowed professionals, under it V. Aditiya - I've done a pamistry course with him. He says that the most contemporary Indian palmists work after Cheiro's basics.

I think the four hand form types is much better in pactice. It came from Carl Gustav Carus - slightly different from F. Getting's. He issued two very recommended prints:

- Ueber Grund und die Bedeutung der verschiedenen Formen der Hand in verschiedenen Personen. Look for (p. 35 ff. pictures):
http://books.google.de/books?id=fiBCAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=carl+gustav+carus+%C3%BCber+grund+und+bedeutung+hand&source=bl&ots=JX5g-CytmV&sig=vdMoabUsnpZUEo2zoYy-6dba-Mo&hl=de&ei=ZrHWTOCMO43sOYmhqf4J&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

- and a much more valluable, Symbolik der menschlichen Gestalt:
http://books.google.de/books?id=WrU6AAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=carl+gustav+carus+symbolik+der+menschlichen&source=bl&ots=MGgm2mDXHS&sig=nFudcNQle-EFhQxe_OKtynF-dOE&hl=de&ei=0LHWTMa3JYWEOpDB-MwJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Regards
Manfred
[b]

sv-b Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:07 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
stalin.v wrote:Hello martijn,

So called western victorian palmist did not do any invention than mixing up greek , french and indian palmistry together. some english knowing indians are reading the work of cheiro and benham as those books were published in india during the time of british period of india. As i already proved how the western victorian palmists were influenced by indian palmistry during the time of british dominancy in india. but, christopher either exploiting it or due to ignorance makes amateurish comments on indian palmistry.

Sorry Stalin, this is only one of your 'repeated' assumptions. You have not provided ANY basis for this assumption (no source at all, no proof at all). While we described the facts that point out to the innovations.

And the facts tell a completely different story (for example: the model of the 7 hand types was developed by d'Arpentigny, before his time any likewise models was never described: neither in the Western literature, nor the Vedic literature).

But the process of this discussion has become worisome, because it shows that you simply prefer to hold on to your private 'beliefs' (and assumptions), in stead of accepting the facts that we shared and presented.

Stalin, I hope that someday ... you will wake up, and accept the facts.

Martijn, dont you think , cheiro mixed up the indian palmistry and french palmistry? Dont you think , benham included astrological sign in his mixed up work(indian and western work) ?

**Manfred** Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:09 pm

....But, Nowhere mentioned about french palmist.?

Please, don't forget the translations, as I mentioned of Saunders (Belot) and others.

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:10 pm

stalin.v wrote:
Where did i ask you question here?

Stalin, my apologies:

I wrote the word 'question' but I meant to write the word 'conclusion' (I have corrected my mistake in my former post).

Okay?

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:18 pm

stalin.v wrote:
Martijn, dont you think , cheiro mixed up the indian palmistry and french palmistry? Dont you think , benham included astrological sign in his mixed up work(indian and western work) ?

Yes Stalin, obviously Cheiro's work was a 'mix' of varous influences from the Europe, the US & India.

Regarding Benham, his use of the astrological signs came directly from the work of Desbarrolles. But d'Arpentigny did not use the astrological signs.

sv-b Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:26 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
stalin.v wrote:
Martijn, dont you think , cheiro mixed up the indian palmistry and french palmistry? Dont you think , benham included astrological sign in his mixed up work(indian and western work) ?

Yes Stalin, obviously Cheiro's work was a 'mix' of varous influences from the Europe, the US & India.

Regarding Benham, his use of the astrological signs came directly from the work of Desbarrolles. But d'Arpentigny did not use the astrological signs.

Indeed, you did not agreed when i told the same thing in my earlier post. and mocked me by saying "wake up".

Hope, Now you can understand the significances of western victorian palmistry. and Tell christopher to change his amateuristic comments on indian palmistry. and convey my regards as well Smile

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:32 pm

stalin.v wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
stalin.v wrote:Hello martijn,

...
p.s: In the wikepedia link, about cheiro. There is only one influence was given under the Tabular coloum. That is an indian sage. But, Nowhere mentioned about french palmist.

That wikipedia page describes only what is generally known about Cheiro's life....

... You appears to be manipulating the truth.

(1) You have just accepted in your own statement that cheiro's influence on indian palmistry how generally known by many peoples!

(2) Doesn't it show you that how western victorian palmists were influenced by indian palmistry? Hope, you will inform this matter to christopher and make himself to correct soon.

Stalin, I only follow the facts... I don't 'manipulate the truth'.

Regarding your first sentence (1): yes, many palmists today in Indian are aware of Cheiro's work.

But sorry, I don't understand how that can relate that to your second sentence (2): you appear to be talking about 2 different periods in the history of human kind.

Again, Stalin I have pointed out that what you presented as your '2nd proof' and '3th proof' are based on your own private assumptions, and are in contridication with the facts.

So, I can basically only support what Christopher wrote - though I already added: I do realize that his choice of words (but only some of his words) could be described as 'not very polite' towards the Indian palmists.

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:46 pm

stalin.v wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
stalin.v wrote:
Martijn, dont you think , cheiro mixed up the indian palmistry and french palmistry? Dont you think , benham included astrological sign in his mixed up work(indian and western work) ?

Yes Stalin, obviously Cheiro's work was a 'mix' of varous influences from the Europe, the US & India.

Regarding Benham, his use of the astrological signs came directly from the work of Desbarrolles. But d'Arpentigny did not use the astrological signs.

Indeed, you did not agreed when i told the same thing in my earlier post. and mocked me by saying "wake up".

Stalin, what's going on in your mind? (You appear to be in 'panic')

I notice here a significant change in your opion about Cheiro, because earlier in this discussion your described that (according) the wikipedia source Cheiro was ONLY influenced by the Indians, see:

stalin.v wrote:Hello Martijn, and lynn..

Hope, we aware that why we're discussing the works of cheiro and D'Arpentigny. My main intention behind this discussion on the works of cheiro and D'Arpentigny is to disprove the claim of christopher jones, especially when he says that Modern indian palmists seem to follow the Western victorian palmistry rather than indigenous origin of their own and his doubts on existence of original indian palmistry sources.

For this , As a first step, I have shown you that where the original manuscrips are now (vaitheswar temple). secondly, I have proved that cheiro is the by-product of indian palmistry as it is obviously explained in Wikepedia link that say about 2years of his thorough study on indian palmistry with the guidance of indian bramin in india.

... but now you, are appear to confirm that Cheiro was also influenced by the Europeans & Americans?

(Which implicates that you are now also confirming that you better had not used the wikipedia source like you did earlier in this discussion).

Do you realize that you have changed your mind? Or did you simply indeliberately wrote a mistake... somewhere???

sv-b Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:47 pm

Our arguements below itself shows how non-sense comment christopher made, by saying indians followed western victorian palmistry. But, actual fact is that Victorian palmists followed the indian palmistry

stalin.v wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
stalin.v wrote:
Martijn, dont you think , cheiro mixed up the indian palmistry and french palmistry? Dont you think , benham included astrological sign in his mixed up work(indian and western work) ?

Yes Stalin, obviously Cheiro's work was a 'mix' of varous influences from the Europe, the US & India.

Regarding Benham, his use of the astrological signs came directly from the work of Desbarrolles. But d'Arpentigny did not use the astrological signs.

Indeed, you did not agreed when i told the same thing in my earlier post. and mocked me by saying "wake up".

Hope, Now you can understand the significances of western victorian palmistry. and Tell christopher to change his amateuristic comments on indian palmistry. and convey my regards as well

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:51 pm

Manfred wrote:Dear Martijn,

a by the way fact: Nearly no one uses the 7 type system I talked about with severeal renowed professionals, under it V. Aditiya - I've done a pamistry course with him. He says that the most contemporary Indian palmists work after Cheiro's basics.

I think the four hand form types is much better in pactice. It came from Carl Gustav Carus - slightly different from F. Getting's. He issued two very recommended prints:

- Ueber Grund und die Bedeutung der verschiedenen Formen der Hand in verschiedenen Personen. Look for (p. 35 ff. pictures):
http://books.google.de/books?id=fiBCAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=carl+gustav+carus+%C3%BCber+grund+und+bedeutung+hand&source=bl&ots=JX5g-CytmV&sig=vdMoabUsnpZUEo2zoYy-6dba-Mo&hl=de&ei=ZrHWTOCMO43sOYmhqf4J&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

- and a much more valluable, Symbolik der menschlichen Gestalt:
http://books.google.de/books?id=WrU6AAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=carl+gustav+carus+symbolik+der+menschlichen&source=bl&ots=MGgm2mDXHS&sig=nFudcNQle-EFhQxe_OKtynF-dOE&hl=de&ei=0LHWTMa3JYWEOpDB-MwJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Regards
Manfred
[b]

Sorry Manfred, your comment is valuable, but I think is goes beyond the focuss of this discussion.

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:59 pm

\Stalin, I think the question in my last response to you is important:

"Do you realize that you have changed your mind? Or did you simply indeliberately wrote a mistake... somewhere???"

Remember, in your second 'proof' you claimed that Cheiro was only a byproduct of Indian palmistry... while in your latest comment you confirmed that Cheiro's work is a 'mix' of influences from Europe, the US and India.

Big difference!!

Now, will you re-read my post, and please answer my queston?

sv-b Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:26 pm

Hello martijn, Smile

Unless i say 'mix', you will not agree to the point that influences of indian palmistry on western works. That was just my trick martijn Smile

Let me gather remaining evidences from indian palmistry classics. Till then, Our indian friends can take part in this discussion.

Hope, christopher will read our discussion and simply enjoy!

Best wishes Smile

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:42 pm

stalin.v wrote:Our arguements below itself shows how non-sense comment christopher made, by saying indians followed western victorian palmistry. But, actual fact is that Victorian palmists followed the indian palmistry.

Stalin, there is no evidence at all that the Victorian palmists follow Indian palmistry!

You mentioned yourself that the Indians only started using bookprinting around the 17th or 18th century, but Manfred correctly pointed out that the Victorian palmists had access to older palmistry writings from Europe/US.

That could even proof that the Victorian palmists founded their work on earlier European writings!! (Though I realize that this is no direct proof)

Additionally, I think you have made another basic mistake...

You've assumed that the basics of 'astro-palmistry' came from India, but this might not be true: the most detailed sources which describe the history of palmistry pointed out that it was Desbarrolles who (re-)introduced the connection between the planets & the mount of the hand (after his work this connection became the new vocabulary-paradigm - though in this 'ancient sources' discussion Manfred presented a few older likewise attempts).

Stalin, if you ever found ANY older source which describes how the planetary influences can be studied via the hand... you are very welcome to share that.

Again, so far you've only shared your 'private opinions & assumptions'.

sv-b Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:51 pm

Hello martijn, Smile

Let the audience of this discussion, being a judge , decide the truth! Smile

cheers, stalin.v

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:57 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello martijn,

Let the audience of this discussion, being a judge , decide the truth!

cheers, stalin.v

Yes, I think that is just fine... anyone is welcome to judge the 'facts'!

But would that change you opinion? Oh...nooo!

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:58 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello martijn,

Unless i say 'mix', you will not agree to the point that influences of indian palmistry on western works. That was just my trick martijn

Let me gather remaining evidences from indian palmistry classics. Till then, Our indian friends can take part in this discussion.

Hope, christopher will read our discussion and simply enjoy!

Best wishes

Dear Stalin,

Regarding what you described as your 'trick', I already pointed out to the obvious CONTRADICTION between your various posts involved.

I would not recommend Christopher to read this discusion, because your 'accusation' is very obviously build on your 'private' (false) assumptions... only!

You only continued to use your assumptions - and you sort of ignored the many facts that we (Lynn & I) delivered, while these facts actually disproof what you presented as your 2nd & 3th 'proof' (see your post earlier today at 4:40).

Lynn & I didn't need any 'tricks' to proof that - because quite some of your words & assumptions proof that you don't really exactly now what you've talking about: obviously there are quite a few historical facts which you didn't know before you started this discussion.

But especially, since you now appear to have started using 'tricks' to continue your accusation, it is now beginning to look like an 'attack' - build on suspicious grounds.

Therefore I have decided that it is time to finish this discuscusion... and I think 'time will tell' what the audience decides about 'the facts'.

wave

*** Discussion closed ***

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