Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Patti Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:18 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:

Beryl Hutchinson - Page 23 "Your Life In Your Hands"

submerged - I guess Beryl was thinking about lagoons, too.

Beryl obviously sees the ulnar side as submerged and hidden and the radial side as conscious.

p.s. you confuse Bevy Jaegers with Beryl Hutchinson - funny - Fitzherbert accuses her of stealing her dg info from Beryl without credit.

Haha... thanks for correcting that, it was rather late last night when I wrote that post. Yes, I was refering to the work of Beryl Hutchinson - as seen in the picture that I featured with my post (not Beverly Jaegers).

Anyway, Hutchinson does describe the ulnar side as 'outer side' (she literally writes on page 23: "... the percussion or outer side of the hand..."), and associates it directly with (the response to) the outside world.

And the radial side of the hand is obviously the conscious 'self-aware' inner side of the hand.

Simples!

You have become very good at using selected words to mean entire sentences. Just like 'import' means important and not an import/export, the outer side in Hutchinson's book is a location and not a reference to the outer world. Both of these are obvious in the English language context.

No one's trying to convince you to change your mind, just trying to be helpful in pointing out your mistakes. I'm going to leave it here as to discussion.

Proof is always in the pudding.

Therefore, I leave this discussion with a fun challenge to you. Let's read some hands together, you use your new 'modern' method and I'll use my tried and true method and let the people getting read judge for themselves. What do you say? Do you believe in your method enough to put it to the test?

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:52 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:

Beryl Hutchinson - Page 23 "Your Life In Your Hands"

submerged - I guess Beryl was thinking about lagoons, too.

Beryl obviously sees the ulnar side as submerged and hidden and the radial side as conscious.

p.s. you confuse Bevy Jaegers with Beryl Hutchinson - funny - Fitzherbert accuses her of stealing her dg info from Beryl without credit.

Haha... thanks for correcting that, it was rather late last night when I wrote that post. Yes, I was refering to the work of Beryl Hutchinson - as seen in the picture that I featured with my post (not Beverly Jaegers).

Anyway, Hutchinson does describe the ulnar side as 'outer side' (she literally writes on page 23: "... the percussion or outer side of the hand..."), and associates it directly with (the response to) the outside world.

And the radial side of the hand is obviously the conscious 'self-aware' inner side of the hand.

Simples!

You have become very good at using selected words to mean entire sentences. Just like 'import' means important and not an import/export, the outer side in Hutchinson's book is a location and not a reference to the outer world. Both of these are obvious in the English language context.

No one's trying to convince you to change your mind, just trying to be helpful in pointing out your mistakes. I'm going to leave it here as to discussion.

Proof is always in the pudding.

Therefore, I leave this discussion with a fun challenge to you. Let's read some hands together, you use your new 'modern' method and I'll use my tried and true method and let the people getting read judge for themselves. What do you say? Do you believe in your method enough to put it to the test?

Patti, I had never heard that the words 'by important' can serve as a synonym for 'importance' (unfortunately, I am not able to find a source which confirms this).

Anyway, whatever Dukes had in mind (I have the impression that his words can be understood as the 'import' polarity of 'export' - because that is what he literally writes), my point of view regarding Dukes works would basically only becomes stronger if Dukes actually meant to say 'air + fire = public by essence'.

(So, I don't fear that I have misread his words)

Patti, you are incorrect by suggesting that I have been selective regarding Hutchinson's words (and implicitely you are actually suggesting that I have misunderstood things) - because she does explicitly describe the ulnar side of the hand in terms of 'the outer world'!

And this sort of 'proofs' that your interpretation of her words is likely incorrect; because the other passages that I have quoted from her work confirm that Hutchinson perceives the thumb as 'inner'.

She proposed even an alternative definition for the 'will-power' aspect of the thumb: Hutchinson says that the thumb 'measures the power of purposeful direction', which appears to be an inner power quality because she does not speak about anything that could relate to direct behavior at all, she adds the aspect of 'purpose' to the thumb.

Just like Johnny Fincham describes the thumb in terms of 'self-mastery'.

Patti, I wonder about whether you are able/willing to agree with me about that the thumb represents the 'essence' of a person?

PS. Lynn had no trouble at all to confirm inside her very first post in this topic that she perceives the thumb to represent the essence of a person. But I have the impression that you never took any position regarding how I used the word 'essence' regarding the thumb. So, I hope you are willing to give me some final response regarding that specific aspect of the title of this topic.

By the way, regarding the word 'essence': this word refers both in a linguistic perspective and in a philosophic perspective to the 'most significant' aspect of a thing or person. And in the context of hand reading therefore it makes sense to associate the thumb with our 'essence': our 'I', 'soul', 'temperament', 'identity' or whatever one wants to name it... because much of our behavior has it's origins in motives & desires rising from this 'essence'... which is inside us. I think this is basically not much more than common sense - because when people start searching for their 'core' or 'essence' a certain amount of introspection is required.

Patti Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:11 pm

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/import

4. Importance; significance: a legal decision of far-reaching import.

The same people who say "import" also use the word "indeed". There's almost an arrogant or similar tone to the word when said. Like the speaker/writer is emphasizing their knowing of its importance.

Patti Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:21 pm

I think the whole hand is representative of the inner essence of humans. I think the thumb/radial side is the more conscious and self aware side. I think the ulnar side is the more hidden, private and subconscious side.

I would describe the non-dominant hand's radial side as more personal ~~but not the dominant hand's radial side.~~ <EDIT> as an afterthought - I cannot think of any part of either hand that truly is non-personal. It's like inner and outer - in that it's a matter of degrees. More or less personal - depending on situation and location of hand being viewed.

I've had a chart at my web site for a couple of weeks now. I think the only thing I would change would be the use of the word 'public' as it seems to cause misunderstandings. Do not worry about the use of the 4 elements, I equal them to the keywords I chose for the quadrants.

http://www.ireadhands.com/blog/hand-maps

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 41 Chart_13

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 41 Chart_13

**kiwihands** Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:07 pm

Martijn, have you overlooked this part of Patti's post?

Patti wrote:Therefore, I leave this discussion with a fun challenge to you. Let's read some hands together, you use your new 'modern' method and I'll use my tried and true method and let the people getting read judge for themselves. What do you say? Do you believe in your method enough to put it to the test?

I think this is an excellent idea! After all, it's part of the scientific process to put new hypotheses to the test before they can be accepted as a valid theory. Logical next step?

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:13 am

Patti wrote:http://www.thefreedictionary.com/import

4. Importance; significance: a legal decision of far-reaching import.

The same people who say "import" also use the word "indeed". There's almost an arrogant or similar tone to the word when said. Like the speaker/writer is emphasizing their knowing of its importance.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:28 am

Patti wrote:I think the whole hand is representative of the inner essence of humans. I think the thumb/radial side is the more conscious and self aware side. I think the ulnar side is the more hidden, private and subconscious side.

I would describe the non-dominant hand's radial side as more personal ~~but not the dominant hand's radial side.~~ <EDIT> as an afterthought - I cannot think of any part of either hand that truly is non-personal. It's like inner and outer - in that it's a matter of degrees. More or less personal - depending on situation and location of hand being viewed.

I've had a chart at my web site for a couple of weeks now. I think the only thing I would change would be the use of the word 'public' as it seems to cause misunderstandings. Do not worry about the use of the 4 elements, I equal them to the keywords I chose for the quadrants.

http://www.ireadhands.com/blog/hand-maps

Thanks for you answer Patti,

If the full hand would represent the 'inner essence', then one could argue that the word 'essence' loses it's meaning as a reference to the most significant part.

I think your concepts & ideas are curious... and rather diffuse, because when one starts describing the full hand as representing the 'inner essence' then one can no longer say that the 'essence' represents any specification at all.

(One could start wondering how you would describe the 'inner essence' in terms of psychology/spirituality)

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:28 am

kiwihands wrote:Martijn, have you overlooked this part of Patti's post?

Patti wrote:Therefore, I leave this discussion with a fun challenge to you. Let's read some hands together, you use your new 'modern' method and I'll use my tried and true method and let the people getting read judge for themselves. What do you say? Do you believe in your method enough to put it to the test?

I think this is an excellent idea! After all, it's part of the scientific process to put new hypotheses to the test before they can be accepted as a valid theory. Logical next step?

Hi Kiwihands,

In my perception this topic has been focussed on the concepts being used in the hand reading literature; so in my view we have been discussing the theory.

And I think, before one can test a 'theory' one needs to have clear perception (& agreement) about the underlying context of the vocabulary being used to describe the theory.

During this discussion it became apparent that it is not easy to find any (partial) agreement at all about the meaning of the concepts in terms of 'inner vs outer'.

(But quite sometimes I even felt that this discussion became sort of a game of politics... where it even became impossible to find an explicit agreement about for example the anatomic perspective of the hand; because only 2 of the discussion participants were able to agree about that perspective at once)

And since it appears to me that Patti has not much supported of the observations that I have communicated during this discussion, ... I hardly see any basis to start an attempt towards a process of testing a theory (especially in a situation like this where there is so much disagreement regarding the concepts being used).

I hope this make sense?

PS. By the way, much earlier in this discussion Patti had already made a likewise proposal, but in my view it is not easy at all to test a specific theory during a few hand reading session. Because beyond the issue of the concepts being used... hand features can also neutralize and/or contradict each other.

(In my view this could very well also explain for the large part why 2 authors sometimes appear to report likewise confirming results... while the two theories used actually make a contradiction. And then it becomes essential to take a look at the psychological/filosophical context of the theories being used, because I think if a theory is not consistent with it's context... the theory is also less likely to represent significance)

Patti Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:11 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:I think the whole hand is representative of the inner essence of humans. I think the thumb/radial side is the more conscious and self aware side. I think the ulnar side is the more hidden, private and subconscious side.

I would describe the non-dominant hand's radial side as more personal ~~but not the dominant hand's radial side.~~ <EDIT> as an afterthought - I cannot think of any part of either hand that truly is non-personal. It's like inner and outer - in that it's a matter of degrees. More or less personal - depending on situation and location of hand being viewed.

I've had a chart at my web site for a couple of weeks now. I think the only thing I would change would be the use of the word 'public' as it seems to cause misunderstandings. Do not worry about the use of the 4 elements, I equal them to the keywords I chose for the quadrants.

http://www.ireadhands.com/blog/hand-maps

Thanks for you answer Patti,

If the full hand would represent the 'inner essence', then one could argue that the word 'essence' loses it's meaning as a reference to the most significant part.

I think your concepts & ideas are curious... and rather diffuse, because when one starts describing the full hand as representing the 'inner essence' then one can no longer say that the 'essence' represents any specification at all.

(One could start wondering how you would describe the 'inner essence' in terms of psychology/spirituality)

I think the inner essence is the frequency at which a person vibrates or exists. All we interpret in the hands is the variations of these energy vibes. We compare energy pattern variations to areas such as psychology and behavior and put matching vibes in categories and give them meaning. In and of themselves there is no consistent meaning to much of anything in the hand as the degrees to which an energy is being used varies from moment to moment and person to person. There is energy and we give that energy definition.

It is unreal to try to describe any part of the hand as outer without also describing it as inner. I said earlier all we are really reading is comfort, pleasure and fear levels/polarities.

When you try to match these energy vibes to subjects like psychology and spirituality - that is all you are doing. Making a match based on a personal viewpoint and knowledge. There is too much subjectivity involved in these subjects to find perfect agreement.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:30 pm

Patti wrote:
I think the inner essence is the frequency at which a person vibrates or exists. All we interpret in the hands is the variations of these energy vibes. We compare energy pattern variations to areas such as psychology and behavior and put matching vibes in categories and give them meaning. In and of themselves there is no consistent meaning to much of anything in the hand as the degrees to which an energy is being used varies from moment to moment and person to person. There is energy and we give that energy definition.

It is unreal to try to describe any part of the hand as outer without also describing it as inner. I said earlier all we are really reading is comfort, pleasure and fear levels/polarities.

When you try to match these energy vibes to subjects like psychology and spirituality - that is all you are doing. Making a match based on a personal viewpoint and knowledge. There is too much subjectivity involved in these subjects to find perfect agreement.

Patti, I understand your association with 'energy'... but l am not sure that this actually relates to the 'essence' of a person. Because 'energy' is actually everywhere in the cosmos, so your energy-description for 'essence' sounds rather abstract & diffuse; without any specification at all.

So, I wonder how you can really use that in your readings...???

Then regarding your use of the word 'frequency':

Many phenonena in nature have a frequency: colors have a frequency, sounds have a frequency - but people don't really have a unique 'frequency' (because the energy of a person can not be described as representing one stable frequency).

The energies that living beings vibrate vary by time & place; these are never the same at any moment in time. And regarding the frequencies involved in these energies, these actually cover a wide spectrum range of frequencies... which for the large part actually overlaps the energy of other persons.

Just like the DNA of a person largely overlaps the DNA of another person: about 99.9% of the DNA is likewise for every person... and in monozygotic twins the DNA-overlap is even 100%!

So, I think this illustrates that for example DNA (which is an example of 'fixed energies') can not serve to represent the (inner) 'essence' of a person - because identical twins each have an inner essence, but their DNA is actually (roughly) exactly the same.

And I think this indicates that it is rather speculative to assume that the diffuse concept of energy covers the unique (inner) essence of a person... because every aspect of us represents energy - just like every phenomenon in the universe does!

Basically, we can only observe that a person has 'individual consciousness', which we usually identify as the 'I' (or: self, I, ego, soul, etc.) ... but we can not see it, nor can we detect it; we can only recognize it in a rather subjective manner... because it is inside us!

So, just like the element 'ether' represents the element which one can not measure or detect (in an objective manner), we could say that this (inner) 'essence' of person is very hard to detect in an objective manner. But I consider 'ether' as unspecified energy as well... because 'ether' only represents a philosophic construct.

By the way...

Yes... in general one can speak regarding the human psyche in terms of energies, but I think it is actually very hard to describe the (inner) 'essence' of a person in terms of energy - one could even say that one can not describe it in any specific type of energy at alll. And I think the DNA example illustrates how hard this really is.

Science does not have any tools to detect the (inner) 'essence'... because there are no objective criteria to recognize it; probably because we can only detect it subjectively via the recognition of a likewise unique (inner) 'essence' that we have in our selves: it works sort of like a mirror!

Anyway, beyond the definition of this (inner) essence; regarding the hand... in the field of hand reading this (inner) 'essence' usually gets associated with the thumb.

So, it's a bit surprizing that you can not identify with the 'essence' aspect of this topic!

And yes... sure, one can deny the importance of the thumb. But let's not forget that even in science the thumb became recognized as a symbol over human evolution.

And yes... sure, in a way one can say that the full hand represents our individuality; in a worldly perspective that is very true indeed (confirmed by for example the unique aspects seen in a fingerprint). However, in many perspectives the thumb sort of represent the key-element... which is inside us.

Anatomically this relates to the fact that only the human hand has perfect opposable thumbs with it's own unique individual human characteristics... and in terms of human psychology, the thumb can be recognized to represent a symbol for our (inner) 'essence', our individual ability to recognize our selves + our inner self-awareness.

Philosophers have recognized this as philosophical truth; but a few hand reading authors have recognized this as well... that is what I have tried to describe in this topic.

Thanks for your input Patti! Thumb up

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 41 Cesar-baldaccini-the-thumb-le-pouce-fondation-cartier-paris

Patti Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:06 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
During this discussion it became apparent that it is not easy to find any (partial) agreement at all about the meaning of the concepts in terms of 'inner vs outer'.

(But quite sometimes I even felt that this discussion became sort of a game of politics... where it even became impossible to find an explicit agreement about for example the anatomic perspective of the hand; because only 2 of the discussion participants were able to agree about that perspective at once)

And since it appears to me that Patti has not much supported of the observations that I have communicated during this discussion, ... I hardly see any basis to start an attempt towards a process of testing a theory (especially in a situation like this where there is so much disagreement regarding the concepts being used).

[/color]

I have not tried to play politics or disagree for the sake of disagreement. I really haven't left my position from my very first post in this thread.

To list things like relationships, sex and communication as a reason the ulnar side (in particular the upper ulnar corner) is more 'public' and 'out there' than the radial side just doesn't make sense. I'd feel like I'm compromising my own knowing, my own truths to say otherwise.

A list of 'public' affairs can be just as fairly listed for the radial side. For instance - sex - Very Happy

-The upper ulnar quadrant tells me, if they are influenced by ambiance, if they prefer one night stands to long term commitment. Are they into superficial qualities or something more real. I can even tell if they are more into gentleness or being rough.
-Upper radial quadrant (including thumb tip) tells me if they like to dominate, be in control. If they have good morals, and can be trusted and if they are idealistic or realistic, possessive or trusting.
-Lower radial quadrant shows if there's any physical energy behind the advances, any real desire or is all for fun, games and personal (mental) satisfaction. No physical energy or desire, I'd look back at the upper ulnar quadrant for kinkiness as it's all likely a mental fantasy.
-Lower ulnar quadrant tells me if there's room for imagination-fantasy-playfulness, for a deeper soul connection rather than just a physical act. Or if it's all just fantasy with no substance.

I need to look at the whole hand to paint the whole picture. Inner/Outer and Public/Private relate to only a very tiny aspect of the reading as I could describe any feature, anywhere in accordance to those 'words'. The division of territories is a backdrop, not a principle.

Patti Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:35 pm

So, I think this illustrates that for example DNA (which is an example of 'fixed energies') can not serve to represent the (inner) 'essence' of a person - because identical twins each have an inner essence, but their DNA is actually (roughly) exactly the same.

What I enjoy doing when reading identical twins is reading their differences - as their essences are otherwise so alike.

Patti Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:37 pm

Patti, I understand your association with 'energy'... but l am not sure that this actually relates to the 'essence' of a person. Because 'energy' is actually everywhere in the cosmos, so your energy-description for 'essence' sounds rather abstract & diffuse; without any specification at all.

So, I wonder how you can really use that in your readings...???

Dermatoglyphics - permanent
Colors, texture, condition - transcience

Patti Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:52 pm

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 41 Delta_11

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 41 Star_d10

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 41 Star_d11

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 41 Star_d12

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 41 Delta_12

http://www.ireadhands.com/blog/science/triradii

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:13 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
During this discussion it became apparent that it is not easy to find any (partial) agreement at all about the meaning of the concepts in terms of 'inner vs outer'.

(But quite sometimes I even felt that this discussion became sort of a game of politics... where it even became impossible to find an explicit agreement about for example the anatomic perspective of the hand; because only 2 of the discussion participants were able to agree about that perspective at once)

And since it appears to me that Patti has not much supported of the observations that I have communicated during this discussion, ... I hardly see any basis to start an attempt towards a process of testing a theory (especially in a situation like this where there is so much disagreement regarding the concepts being used).

[/color]

I have not tried to play politics or disagree for the sake of disagreement. I really haven't left my position from my very first post in this thread.

To list things like relationships, sex and communication as a reason the ulnar side (in particular the upper ulnar corner) is more 'public' and 'out there' than the radial side just doesn't make sense. I'd feel like I'm compromising my own knowing, my own truths to say otherwise.

...

Patti, I don't understand why it doesn't make sense to you that those 3 key-words (relationships - sex - communication) mostly relate to 'outer'... because the phenomena related to those 3 key-words can not take place without other persons (who live in the outer world) actively getting involved.

By the way, to me it appears that you didn't give any argument at all to explain why it doesn't make sense to you.

You said that it doesn't make sense to you; but your final words suggest that you said this basically... only because it wouldn't fit with your principle to acknowledge that those 3 key-words mostly relate to 'outer'.

To me this appears to implicate that even if I presented more evidence that the ulnar side of the hand typically relates more to 'outer' phenomena ... you would by principle say again 'no', just to hold on to the principle which you are most familiar with.

(That would be like first adopting a principle, and then turn your head away from all signals that potentially could indicate that your principle might not work)

Patti, can you understand that his is how your words appear to me?

(I am not asking you to 'find' an argument, I only hope that you can understand how your feedback/response appears to me; if I have misunderstood your words...please, do feel free to explain)

... thinking

PS. So far we only used 'intimacy' (which requires two people) as a theme related to the pinky; I would actualy link 'sexual desires' to the mount of venus (because I think the need for love and/or the desire for sexual experiences by principle starts in the inner world).

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:26 pm

Patti wrote:
Patti, I understand your association with 'energy'... but l am not sure that this actually relates to the 'essence' of a person. Because 'energy' is actually everywhere in the cosmos, so your energy-description for 'essence' sounds rather abstract & diffuse; without any specification at all.

So, I wonder how you can really use that in your readings...???

Dermatoglyphics - permanent
Colors, texture, condition - transcience

Sorry, I don't recognize how your answer relates to the 'energy' that you started talking about regarding the 'essence' aspect in the title of this topic.

Patti Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:47 pm

Bottom line - my readings are very accurate - using my method.

Patti Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:46 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
During this discussion it became apparent that it is not easy to find any (partial) agreement at all about the meaning of the concepts in terms of 'inner vs outer'.

(But quite sometimes I even felt that this discussion became sort of a game of politics... where it even became impossible to find an explicit agreement about for example the anatomic perspective of the hand; because only 2 of the discussion participants were able to agree about that perspective at once)

And since it appears to me that Patti has not much supported of the observations that I have communicated during this discussion, ... I hardly see any basis to start an attempt towards a process of testing a theory (especially in a situation like this where there is so much disagreement regarding the concepts being used).

[/color]

I have not tried to play politics or disagree for the sake of disagreement. I really haven't left my position from my very first post in this thread.

To list things like relationships, sex and communication as a reason the ulnar side (in particular the upper ulnar corner) is more 'public' and 'out there' than the radial side just doesn't make sense. I'd feel like I'm compromising my own knowing, my own truths to say otherwise.

...

Patti, I don't understand why it doesn't make sense to you that those 3 key-words (relationships - sex - communication) mostly relate to 'outer'... because the phenomena related to those 3 key-words can not take place without other persons (who live in the outer world) actively getting involved.

By the way, to me it appears that you didn't give any argument at all to explain why it doesn't make sense to you.

You said that it doesn't make sense to you; but your final words suggest that you said this basically... only because it wouldn't fit with your principle to acknowledge that those 3 key-words mostly relate to 'outer'.

To me this appears to implicate that even if I presented more evidence that the ulnar side of the hand typically relates more to 'outer' phenomena ... you would by principle say again 'no', just to hold on to the principle which you are most familiar with.

(That would be like first adopting a principle, and then turn your head away from all signals that potentially could indicate that your principle might not work)

Patti, can you understand that his is how your words appear to me?

(I am not asking you to 'find' an argument, I only hope that you can understand how your feedback/response appears to me; if I have misunderstood your words...please, do feel free to explain)

...

PS. So far we only used 'intimacy' (which requires two people) as a theme related to the pinky; I would actualy link 'sexual desires' to the mount of venus (because I think the need for love and/or the desire for sexual experiences by principle starts in the inner world).

I really disliked that guy beating his head against the wall emoticon - but some times I think we need it here!

When you point out the need for other people to participate, I truly just shrug my shoulders at that. You are really giving too much meaning and power to your keywords.

Thumb - out there - power over others and projection of self onto the world - physical interaction with others.
Index finger - out there - joining the sheeple, acting alone, or leading others
Middle finger - out there - rules, dogma, discipline - to get along with others

The qualities of these fingers relate just as much to the out there keywords that have been assigned by a few palm readers that have written books (that support the ulnar as you side) The publishers do not check their work for accuracy in this subject and I even recall Johnny saying he had to make unwanted changes to his book to get it published.

Sex and intimacy isn't really represented by the upper ulnar quadrant alone. The only sex that quadrant represents is something to the effect of 'love letters' or 'phone sex'. It needs other quadrant's energies, such as the thenar mount that represents the drive and vigor to put some action where a person's mouth is...otherwise it's just a bunch of hot air.

Which reminds me - you told Lynn air was not tangible. Of course it's tangible. It might not be visible, but that is the sense of sight not touch. Wave your fingers in your face really fast - that's air you feel. If it was a vacuum, you wouldn't feel anything.

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:33 am

Patti wrote:... When you point out the need for other people to participate, I truly just shrug my shoulders at that. You are really giving too much meaning and power to your keywords. ...

Patti, in general: an individual can express his/her (inner) 'essence', vitality & desires to the outer world... without any active participation from other people at all.

(And I could say likewise things regarding quite some of the key-words that you mentioned for the thumb, index- and middle finger)

But regarding the major key-words for the pinky there is nearly always active involved from other people required.

That is why the pinky (which usually stands for mutual interaction with others) can best be recognized as more related to how we deal with the outer world, and that is why the thumb (which usually stands for desire, reason & will) can best be recognized as more related to the inner world.

So, Patti, in your terminology I could describe my perspective as follows:

- radial side is like a 'one-way street': the assertive 'I' seeking for expression to fullfill it's own wishes and desires; the 'I' is more active and there is only a passive role required for other people; and thus the 'I' is more active, and the 'you' is more passive => that is why we can call it the 'I'-side!

- ulnar side is like a 'two-way street': the coöperative 'I' seeking for mutual interaction; the 'I' is more passive and there is an active role required for other people; and thus the 'I' is more passive, and the 'you' is more active => that is why we can call it the 'you'-side!

(Gosh... I now wish I had described it like this in my very first post Very Happy

)

PS.

In the anatomic perspective the pinky is the most outward standing of the 4 fingers (not counting the thumb as a true finger)... because it is not surrounded by 2 other digit; and therefore it is symbolically the most suitable finger for interaction with the outer world... because it is less influenced and restricted by the activity of the other fingers.

While the thumb is more faced towards the other fingers and the inner palm... it takes the one way street via the palm + the other more distal fingers!!!

Patti Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:28 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, in general: an individual can express his/her (inner) 'essence', vitality & desires to the outer world... without any active participation from other people at all.

(And I could say likewise things regarding quite some of the key-words that you mentioned for the thumb, index- and middle finger)

ok

But regarding the major key-words for the pinky there is nearly always active involved from other people required.

No more or less than the other digits.

That is why the pinky (which usually stands for mutual interaction with others) can best be recognized as more related to how we deal with the outer world, and that is why the thumb (which usually stands for desire, reason & will) can best be recognized as more related to the inner world.

I don't see where the 'pinky' stands for any more mutual interaction with others than the radial side of the hand. The little finger can also relate to personal insecurities, inadequacies and avoidance of social interaction. The little finger may relate to the courtship - the communication. But...procreation would be thenar related as that is related to the physical. You can have one without the other, but as you like to point out, they both require interacting with another....except the pinky finger things could be accomplished alone....who was the mythological guy who fell in love with his reflection?

So, Patti, in your terminology I could describe my perspective as follows:

- radial side is like a 'one-way street': the assertive 'I' seeking for expression to fullfill it's own wishes and desires; the 'I' is more active and there is only a passive role required for other people; and thus the 'I' is more active, and the 'you' is more passive => that is why we can call it the 'I'-side!

Here it's important to have a definition for 'active and passive' and where you are placing them. I place active in the digits and passive at the heel of the palm to the wrist.

I agree with "the assertive "I" seeking expression to fulfill its own wishes and desires" but that's only slightly different than the ring finger's 'seeking expression to fulfill its own wishes and desires in being creative and self expressive'. (it = I = self) The radial side would be more control and dominance related. More physical.

I disagree with the 1 way street. Degrees and spectrum is my preferred terminology.

- ulnar side is like a 'two-way street': the coöperative 'I' seeking for mutual interaction; the 'I' is more passive and there is an active role required for other people; and thus the 'I' is more passive, and the 'you' is more active => that is why we can call it the 'you'-side!

Cooperation is something I look for in the beginning of the life and head lines on the radial side of the hand. Also the fate line and how it crosses the head line relates to cooperation and team work. Index finger in its role as leader requires cooperation.

Although we still disagree - you're coming closer to something agreeable. sunny

Didn't you argue with Lynn for some time about the expressive, assertive nature of the thumb? (- radial side is like a 'one-way street': the assertive 'I' seeking for expression) In this sense you have come to agree with us in the 'putting yourself out there' energy.

Thumb up

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:04 am

Patti wrote:...
I don't see where the 'pinky' stands for any more mutual interaction with others than the radial side of the hand. The little finger can also relate to personal insecurities, inadequacies and avoidance of social interaction. The little finger may relate to the courtship - the communication. But...procreation would be thenar related as that is related to the physical. You can have one without the other, but as you like to point out, they both require interacting with another....except the pinky finger things could be accomplished alone....who was the mythological guy who fell in love with his reflection?
...

Patti, this is getting confusing... because your new key-words above suggest that you appear to walk away from the key-words that you used in your previous post yesterday: "relationships, sex and communication".

(By the way, I never used that specific combination... because I perceive intimacy fundamentally different from sex; I perceive sex as being more related to the physical activity related to the sex-organs - that can get involved with intimacy... but intimacy itself by principle relates more to "the feeling of being in a close personal association and belonging together" - source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimacy#Intimacy ; so I perceive that 'intimacy' does not require any form of sexual relationship at all!)

But now you are talking about "insecurities, inadequacies and avoidance of social interation", which I recognize to relate specificly to a SHORT pinky!

For the short pinky I could now say:

short pinky = fear for 'two-way street' interaction (in terms of: communication, relationships & intimacy!

By the way, so far in this topic I have basically only talked about the major key-words for each hand zone based on the literature.... I never talked about the key-words related to over- or under development, because I realize that underdeveloment at the ulnar side results in more influence of the radial side, and vice versa.

Therefore I think we should not focuss on key-words associated with under- or over development, because that would make things (unnecessary) more complicated than the essentials really are... because 'underdevelopment' is essentially the result of a comparison with other aspects of the hand, which suggests that the influence of the rest of the hand is then bigger.

And therefore, when we start talking about key-words associated with an under developed pinky... then in a way we are actually no longer talking about the essentials of the pinky it self, we are then kind of talking about how the rest of the hand becomes more dominat then the pinky!

Therefore I have to reject your key-words for the pinky itself, while your key-words used in your previous post ("relationships, sex and communication") do describe some essentials of the pinky!

Only, yes, I have occasionally talked about the money/business aspect of the pinky; but I perceive that actually as more related to an 'overdeveloped pinky'; but that is less problematic because in the overdeveloped pinky the essentials of the pinky manifest more exagerated: money + business is by principle also typicallly a matter of a 'two way street' interaction between two parties!

PS. One more thought:

I think where Hutchinson talked about a 'submerged/instinctive self', this can best be understood as a self that is sort of submerged with the 'outside world' (or a self that identifies with the ulnar 'two-way street')!

And I perceive that the words 'submerged conscious' is probably a much more precise word compared to the use of the word 'subconscious' (that has been used in many hand reading books).

**Lynn** Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:28 am

Martijn said -

So, Patti, in your terminology I could describe my perspective as follows:

- radial side is like a 'one-way street': the assertive 'I' seeking for expression to fullfill it's own wishes and desires; the 'I' is more active and there is only a passive role required for other people; and thus the 'I' is more active, and the 'you' is more passive => that is why we can call it the 'I'-side!

- ulnar side is like a 'two-way street': the coöperative 'I' seeking for mutual interaction; the 'I' is more passive and there is an active role required for other people; and thus the 'I' is more passive, and the 'you' is more active => that is why we can call it the 'you'-side!

(Gosh... I now wish I had described it like this in my very first post Very Happy )

Patti said -

Although we still disagree - you're coming closer to something agreeable.

Yes I wish you had described it like that earlier Martijn! Laughing

I understand better what you are saying. At least as far as the digits go.
eg Patti and I have already said similar about radial and the assertive 'I' (or self) seeking for expression(I think maybe when we quoted from Gettings?).
However I don't think that the luna area / water quad / Sea of Subconscious requires an active role for other people nor is always a two way street.

After 69 pages of discussion.... Maybe it's a mistake for us even to try and divide the whole hand into the two halves in this way, although there is that anatomical division with radial & ulnar nerves. I think that's where the biggest problems and disagreements have been in this discussion. What applies to the fingers doesn't necessarily apply to the palm on the same half of the hand. As far as 5-elements go, the passive element fingers are on radial side and active on ulna side, whereas the passive element quadrants are on lower palm and active at top. So we've still got that spectrum that Patti talks about.

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:39 am

Patti wrote:...

Although we still disagree - you're coming closer to something agreeable.

Didn't you argue with Lynn for some time about the expressive, assertive nature of the thumb? (- radial side is like a 'one-way street': the assertive 'I' seeking for expression) In this sense you have come to agree with us in the 'putting yourself out there' energy.

Yes Patti, I perceive some progress as well.

(However, I perceive your example related to 'short pinky' key-words - where you didn't even notified that you started talking about pinky negative - as an act to step away from what I actually described).

Yes, we talked about the word 'assert' in the perspective of von Mangoldt's 'I'-side and 'you-side'.

I can now explain better why I perceive that this theme more relates to the inner world than the outer world... because asserting is like a 'one-way street' starting from an inner desire, and at the end of the 'one-way street' it has been putten outside.

Self-assertion doesn't require interaction with the outer world (though that actually very much depends on the situation); for example: one can even act self-assertive by doing nothing when another person communicates a treath... a self-assertive person might not give any response to a treath at all when it continues to stand in it's position.

Therefore 'assertiveness' is essentially not an outer world thing; because by essense self-assertiveness is much more a matter of active consciousness (inner world); remember... I described that this theme became popular in the perspective of soldiers who had to learn how to deal with their traumatized inner world... so 'assertivenes' by principle does not require active behavior (inside outer world).

Just like 'intimacy' does not require 'physical contacty'!!!

(In this discussion I think it is important to continue to focuss on the core value of words & concepts; which may be different from how we might tend to use it in daily life)

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:06 pm

Lynn wrote:Martijn said -
So, Patti, in your terminology I could describe my perspective as follows:

- radial side is like a 'one-way street': the assertive 'I' seeking for expression to fullfill it's own wishes and desires; the 'I' is more active and there is only a passive role required for other people; and thus the 'I' is more active, and the 'you' is more passive => that is why we can call it the 'I'-side!

- ulnar side is like a 'two-way street': the coöperative 'I' seeking for mutual interaction; the 'I' is more passive and there is an active role required for other people; and thus the 'I' is more passive, and the 'you' is more active => that is why we can call it the 'you'-side!

(Gosh... I now wish I had described it like this in my very first post Very Happy )

Patti said -
Although we still disagree - you're coming closer to something agreeable.

Yes I wish you had described it like that earlier Martijn! I understand better what you are saying. At least as far as the digits go.
eg Patti and I have already said similar about radial and the assertive 'I' (or self) seeking for expression(I think maybe when we quoted from Gettings?).
However I don't think that the luna area / water quad / Sea of Subconscious requires an active role for other people nor is always a two way street.

After 69 pages of discussion.... Maybe it's a mistake for us even to try and divide the whole hand into the two halves in this way, although there is that anatomical division with radial & ulnar nerves. I think that's where the biggest problems and disagreements have been in this discussion. What applies to the fingers doesn't necessarily apply to the palm on the same half of the hand. As far as 5-elements go, the passive element fingers are on radial side and active on ulna side, whereas the passive element quadrants are on lower palm and active at top.So we've still got that spectrum that Patti talks about.

Thanks Lynn! Thanks!

Very nice to hear that my 'street-analogy' became helpful for you.

(And yes, I fully understand what you are saying regarding the two halves of the hand; we have faced many problematic aspects; but we also know that the 4 palmar zones under the fingers in the field of hand reading get associated with the above located fingers and the dorsal side of the hand shows that this makes sense due to the bone structure... and the nerves also confirm this. Therefore I think that the principles for the fingers are not really completely different for the palm, but it is a matter of choosing the most suitable perspective... and this discussion made me much more aware that the anatomic perspective is a very helpful tool to understand the ESSENTIALS!)

PS. Lynn, for quite a few weeks I have thought... have you ever considered the following principles?:

- Mount of venus = earth
- Mount of moon = water
- Radial mars = fire
- Ulnar mars = air

- Mount of jupiter = water
- Mount of saturn = earth
- Mount of sun = fire
- Mount of mercurius = air

What is your thought regarding this suggestion/option?
Have you ever considered things like this?

I would like this much more than the use of planetary archetypes, where the concepts are rather diffuse... and very susceptible to free interpretation and cherry-picking with no clear underlying principles at all.

While I perceive the elemental principles combined with Yin-Yang philosophy present a much more sensible perspective!

Patti Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:43 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

short pinky = fear for 'two-way street' interaction (in terms of: communication, relationships & intimacy!

I see you (subconsciously have) picked up on the idea that it's not really about keywords, but about "fear" (comfort/discomfort zones)

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