Re: Nail Ridges

**Martijn (admin)** Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:50 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn, I (kind-of) understand what tarotmancer is saying about "A horizontal ridge would be going with the growth of the nail entirely. While a vertical ridge would be going with the growth of the nail in one place." He is talking about same direction of nail growth / alignment as we are. I don't think there is any misunderstanding of angles etc, just misunderstanding of words!

Lynn, yes I understand what you are trying to say here regarding those indivual sentences. But when you start considering the sentences together then you will get confronted that his ideas do not really make sense.

(And I want you to know that your many questions in response to his statements do make sense as well...!)

Want another example?
The sentence that you mentioned in your quote is actually another example:

"... a vertical ridge would be going with the growth of the nail in one place."

I think this is actually rethoric nonsense, because he sort of describes here that a vertical ridge 'would be going' where the vertical ridge is going!!!

And I repeat, he also suggested in his first posts that vertical ridges are

'...usually easy to see and somewhat less common'.

This makes me wonder:
... easy to see than what?
... and less common than what?

The answer can only be that he is suggesting in his first comment that vertical ridges are more easy to seen and less common than horizontal ridges... however, I think you and I know very well that the reverse is usually true!

Lynn, do you now finally recognize as well how confusing his ideas really are?

PS. The so-called 'common sense' that he wrote about vertical ridges only showed up AFTER I started discussing the issue explicitly... but I also noticed that those comments were followed by other conflicting statements regarding the difference between vertical and horizontal ridges. So, I think he is basically sort of only thinking out loud as we confronted him with quite a few objections (from my side) and questions (from your side).

travelingtarotmancer Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:39 pm

Lynn wrote:
Lynn wrote: NB I drink lots of coffee, I don't have any horizontal ridges.
travelingtarotmancer wrote:....You have both types of ridges.... your horizontal ridges are more like waves. you cant see it if you already have em....
I've never had any horizontal ridges. Are you confusing me with Lori?

Martijn, I (kind-of) understand what tarotmancer is saying about "A horizontal ridge would be going with the growth of the nail entirely. While a vertical ridge would be going with the growth of the nail in one place." He is talking about same direction of nail growth / alignment as we are. I don't think there is any misunderstanding of angles etc, just misunderstanding of words!

tarotmancer re
The reason why i beleive it is less common is because the problems that start with horizontal lines can lead to vertical lines. I beleive Lori
is an example of this. As you can see she has deep horizontal waves and one very pronounced verticle ridge on her left thumb. Thus starting with the more prounounced horizontal lines and eventually ending up with verticle lines.
How did you make that conclusion? We don't know which ridges developed first on Lori's nails.

What I mean is that the vertical ridges that indicate health problems
are somewhat less common. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Our liver is
always detoxifying our bodies making it so you always have the lines to a
sleight degree.
Did I understand this correctly - you are saying that vertical ridges that indicate health problems are somewhat less common than vertical ridges that do not indicate health problems? In your first post it seemed you were saying that vertical ridges are somewhat less common than horizontal ridges, hence our arguments -you only have to look at lots of hands to know that you see more vertical ridges than horizontal.

Did you read any medical / scientific studies that correlate nail ridges with liver problems? I've never heard it before.... and I'm not sure it is true? Looking at a small sample of hands of alcoholics, people with hepatitis, cirrhosis, I noticed how unusually flat and smooth the nails were (in my perception, I am not stating it as fact). (PS I guess the flatness was bordering on 'spoon shaped nails', also pale - probably anaemia??).

Yes sorry i meant Lori's example. sorry for the confusion. I concluded that the horizantal ridges in Lori's example are more pronounced than the vertical ones. Considering I have seen the extremes of both spectrums of vertical and horizontal ridges. One or two prounounced verticle ridges are less developed considering there is only one or two pronounced ridges than the waves of horizontal ridges covering the entire nail. Basically there are more horizontal ridges than verticle. It takes time to develope these ridges also. Because the horizontal ridges are more pronounced and there is more of them simply means they have been in developement for a longer period of time. Also liver damage is a set in disease which takes longer to form. While people with a liver disease have almost solely verticle ridges.

No, what i mean is verticle ridges that indicate health problems are somewhat less common than horizontal ridges. Simply because horizontal ridges have a more overall reflection on a persons health so it would start with a horizontal ridge and could lead to a vertical ridge that would indicate a health problem. That seems to be Lori's case.
Heres some info on how the liver and kidneys work. Basically the liver filters what the kidney's cannot. I would say the vertical lines are somewhat of a result of the liver and kidneys not functioning well together. The verticle ridges becoming enhanced with age and set in of disease. Look at the case of Beau's lines, verticle ridges and psoriasis, in lower link.
http://www.lpch.org/DiseaseHealthInfo/HealthLibrary/digest/liverant.html
http://hpathy.com/homeopathy-papers/fingernails-and-what-they-reveal/
I beleive this quote (in the top link) "regulation of blood levels of amino acids, which form the building blocks of proteins" on how the liver works has something to do with how the liver helps form proteins, that if it malfunctioned would probably cause verticle lines in the nails. Because the liver has to do with the actual formation of the proteins not the kidneys. In the case of Bau's lines high acidity in the blood can cause problems such as lowering the immune system leading to any range of acute or moderate illnesses. I have personally found that I can monitor my own blood acidity by feeling the horizontal ridges in my nails. I have also read both of these subjects in a book i beleive to be this one http://www.alibris.com/booksearch.detail?invid=10962219045&browse=1&qwork=2803141&qsort=&page=1

**Lynn** Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:07 am

hi tarotmancer, thanks for your reply, seems you added to it since I saw your original reply to my msg was only about Lori's hands. Many thanks for adding your thoughts. It is late here, so I will reply to you tomorrow.
However from my experience I disagree that vertical ridges (that indicate health problems) are somewhat less common than horizontal ridges. Many more people have vertical than horizontal ridges. However I notice your point about "vertical ridges that indicate health problems". How do you differentiate between vertical ridges that indicate health problems vs vertical ridges that don't indicate health problems?

**Lynn** Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:18 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, do you now finally recognize as well how confusing his ideas really are?

I was also confused by some of tarotmancer's points, but I think some of it was due to confusing explanations/words rather than his ideas (?). Martijn, I hope we can concentrate less on some of the apparently confusing words (is it called semantics?) and focus more on the ideas behind it. I would like to hear more about what tarotmancer has to say about nail ridges. Tarotmancer, sorry for talking about you as if you aint here! I notice you posted a link to a scientific paper from pubmed about direction of nail growth being controversial, that shows me that you have a serious interest in the subject, even tho we have started off by misunderstandings due to some use of language/chosen words!
sorry it's late and I am Sleep

Patti Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:21 am

travelingtarotmancer wrote:While vertical ridges (twoards tip) indicate liver problems usually shows up on people with hepatitis or drinking problems. These are usually easy to see and somewhat less common.

Hi Travelingtarotmancer,
Do you see any liver related issues with these nails?
Nail Ridges - Page 2 Michae24

He is diagnosed with cancer of the liver.

Patti Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:58 am

travelingtarotmancer wrote:

Basically there are more horizontal ridges than verticle. It takes time to develope these ridges also. Because the horizontal ridges are more pronounced and there is more of them simply means they have been in developement for a longer period of time.

I guess you are aware that on average it takes about 5 to 6 months for a nail to grow from the proximal nail bed to where it breaks away from the quick distally. That means the nail continuously forms at the bed and grows out. Horizontal ridges (unless caused by outside injury) are formed at the bed and grow out. They reflect the state of the body (physically and emotionally) at the time they are being formed.

These horizontal ridges are limited to the period of time they have formed in. Wider the ridge the longer the period of time.

Vertical ridges would form in the horizontal ridges because they are growing out from an area that has a template of sorts. I say this because the vertical ridges are continuous and not random proximal-distally.

Your remark that the horizontal ridges are more common than vertical can possibly be justified in the sense of growth 'rings'. Markings that can be seen on horn, beaks, claws or old people's big toe nails lol!

Is this what you are trying to describe here when you say they are more common?

Of course damaged nail bed tissue can cause the nail to either appear detached as it grows over the scarred area or rise and lower to match the contours.

When I was very young my brother reached across the kitchen table and grabbed my hand for some reason and his nail scrapped off a chunk of skin at the base of my cuticle. I was about 9. As the nail grew out there has always been a groove with a ridge on each side growing out from where the skin is scarred - still there many decades later. Now there are a few more vertical ridges along side it appearing as I got older. Seeing this on my nail leads me to believe that over time we damage and scar the cuticles of our nails and the nails as they grow out reflect this.

p.s.: I have Enid Hoffman's book and just reread that chapter. This is one of the books I read from cover to cover when I first started reading hands in the early 80's and the information that she shares about the nail ridges is pretty much the basis of where I first got my information. I am in agreement with what she writes as it as played out as accurate in my experience. My edition is 1983.

**zaobhand** Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:57 am

Hi Patti,

Thought I'd share my experience on vertical ridges. After having improved my nutrition and sensitivity to stress, the vertical ridges have diminished significantly. They didn't diminish uniformly but rather the new nail was much smoother. So at some point the top half of nail had deeper and messier markings than the bottom half. It was fun watching the birth of health.

Patti Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:03 am

zaobhand wrote:Hi Patti,

Thought I'd share my experience on vertical ridges. After having improved my nutrition and sensitivity to stress, the vertical ridges have diminished significantly. They didn't diminish uniformly but rather the new nail was much smoother. So at some point the top half of nail had deeper and messier markings than the bottom half. It was fun watching the birth of health.

It is interesting to watch the markings on the nails grow out. I find it amazing that Lynn says she has never experienced a horizontal ridge. Then all I can say is she can handle stress very well, doesn't get stressed, has always been healthy and blessed with no sudden tragic events or broken bones and bad bumps on the head (or just doesn't pay attention to her nails Wink

).

(

)

**zaobhand** Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:06 am

Interesting! I can't recall having a horizontal ridge either. Lucky me, I guess. rabbit

**Lynn** Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:55 pm

zaobhand wrote: After having improved my nutrition and sensitivity
to stress, the vertical ridges have diminished significantly. They
didn't diminish uniformly but rather the new nail was much smoother. So
at some point the top half of nail had deeper and messier markings than
the bottom half. It was fun watching the birth of health.

that's interesting, I've never seen vertical ridges on just top or lower half of the nail!

Patti wrote:I find it amazing that Lynn says she has never experienced a horizontal ridge. Then all I can say is she can handle stress very well, doesn't get stressed, has always been healthy and blessed with no sudden tragic events or broken bones and bad bumps on the head (or just doesn't pay attention to her nails ). ( )

Or maybe she just has a bad memory;) ! No I really don't remember ever having a horizontal ridge (or Beau's lines as I was originally taught). I thought it had to be some quite traumatic event (physical or emotional) for a horizontal ridge to appear (as opposed to general day-to-day stress) and luckily I haven't experienced it.

Patti Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:02 pm

Lynn wrote:
zaobhand wrote: After having improved my nutrition and sensitivity
to stress, the vertical ridges have diminished significantly. They
didn't diminish uniformly but rather the new nail was much smoother. So
at some point the top half of nail had deeper and messier markings than
the bottom half. It was fun watching the birth of health.
that's interesting, I've never seen vertical ridges on just top or lower half of the nail!

Patti wrote:I find it amazing that Lynn says she has never experienced a horizontal ridge. Then all I can say is she can handle stress very well, doesn't get stressed, has always been healthy and blessed with no sudden tragic events or broken bones and bad bumps on the head (or just doesn't pay attention to her nails ). ( )
Or maybe she just has a bad memory;) ! No I really don't remember ever having a horizontal ridge (or Beau's lines as I was originally taught). I thought it had to be some quite traumatic event (physical or emotional) for a horizontal ridge to appear (as opposed to general day-to-day stress) and luckily I haven't experienced it.

I thought it was mainly stress or trauma too. But, in December I broke my little finger nail partially off below the quick and bandaided it together for a couple of weeks while it grew out. It finally grew out enough to clip off and when it did I saw a deep ridge starting to grow. So, apparently just trauma to the finger itself can cause a ridge. Or wearing a bandaid over the nail. It's my right hand and I tried to photograph it yesterday but can't hold the camera steady with my left!

**zaobhand** Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:06 pm

Lynn wrote:
zaobhand wrote: After having improved my nutrition and sensitivity
to stress, the vertical ridges have diminished significantly. They
didn't diminish uniformly but rather the new nail was much smoother. So
at some point the top half of nail had deeper and messier markings than
the bottom half. It was fun watching the birth of health.
that's interesting, I've never seen vertical ridges on just top or lower half of the nail!

I wish I took photos! The ridges didn't disappear, they improved significantly though on the new part of the nail.

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:26 pm

Lynn wrote:
(travelingtarotmancer wrote:) What I mean is that the vertical ridges that indicate health problems
are somewhat less common. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Our liver is
always detoxifying our bodies making it so you always have the lines to a
sleight degree.
Did I understand this correctly - you are saying that vertical ridges that indicate health problems are somewhat less common than vertical ridges that do not indicate health problems? In your first post it seemed you were saying that vertical ridges are somewhat less common than horizontal ridges, hence our arguments -you only have to look at lots of hands to know that you see more vertical ridges than horizontal.

Did you read any medical / scientific studies that correlate nail ridges with liver problems? I've never heard it before.... and I'm not sure it is true? Looking at a small sample of hands of alcoholics, people with hepatitis, cirrhosis, I noticed how unusually flat and smooth the nails were (in my perception, I am not stating it as fact). (PS I guess the flatness was bordering on 'spoon shaped nails', also pale - probably anaemia??).

Hi Lynn,

I am quite sure that there is no connection between liver disease and vertical ridges in the nails. And there is plenty of evidence that (chronice) liver disease typically manifest via other aspects of the nails (related to the color & curve of the nails), see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrhosis#Signs_and_symptoms

While vertical ridges are usually harmless (just like the wrinkles of the skin) and often resulting from the process of aging, there are a few disorders that have been associated with vertical ridges:
- arthritis, kidney problems, anemia (iron deficiency), and arteriosclerosis.

Beaven & Brooks describe a conncection between 'vertical (longitudinal) ridges' with chronic obstructive airways.

Also on this website about 'ridges in fingernails' there is no association described between vertical ridges & liver problems:
http://www.ridgesinfingernails.org/ridges-in-fingernails/what-ridges-in-fingernails-can-say-about-your-health

('Google scholar' also does not present any single confirming clue for travelingtarotmancer's suggestion)

Finally, the following article (including the picture below) describes how 'vertical ridges' directly result from the growth direction of the nail because they correspond to the papillae inside the corium:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/180/3/265.short

(NOTICE: Brittle nails or onychorrhexis can be understood as resulting from some kind of malfunction/malshaping in the papillae of the corium inside the nail bed!)

Longitudinal Section Through Nail And Nail-Bed Of A Human Foetal Finger:
A, The Nail; B, The Rete Mucosum; C, The Longitudinal Ridges Of The Corium.
Nail Ridges - Page 2 Fig-25-Longitudinal-Section-Through-Nail-And-Nail-Bed-Of

Nail Ridges - Page 2 Fig-25-Longitudinal-Section-Through-Nail-And-Nail-Bed-Of

**Martijn (admin)** Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:56 pm

Nail Ridges - Page 2 Vertical-ridges-fingernails-normal

In response to the discussion earlier this week, I have written an article presenting a proper & more detailed treatise about how to understand the nature of the vertical ridges in general + how to discriminate the pathological variants from the variants within the normal range of vertical ridges.

An introduction to the article is presented in this new topic:
Vertical ridges in fingernails: causes, aging & health related variations!

(I hope this initiative will somehow become helpful in the perspective of the discussion about ridges in general so far!)

travelingtarotmancer Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:40 am

Patti wrote:
travelingtarotmancer wrote:While vertical ridges (twoards tip) indicate liver problems usually shows up on people with hepatitis or drinking problems. These are usually easy to see and somewhat less common.

Hi Travelingtarotmancer,
Do you see any liver related issues with these nails?

He is diagnosed with cancer of the liver.

I beleive the sign in of disease and age have not set in yet with his liver cancer that is why I say the vertical ridges that indicate problems are less common because they take longer to form. While horizontal lines form more often and are due to minor problems

travelingtarotmancer Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:03 am

Lynn wrote:hi tarotmancer, thanks for your reply, seems you added to it since I saw your original reply to my msg was only about Lori's hands. Many thanks for adding your thoughts. It is late here, so I will reply to you tomorrow.
However from my experience I disagree that vertical ridges (that indicate health problems) are somewhat less common than horizontal ridges. Many more people have vertical than horizontal ridges. However I notice your point about "vertical ridges that indicate health problems". How do you differentiate between vertical ridges that indicate health problems vs vertical ridges that don't indicate health problems?

Verticle ridges that indicate health problems are extremely pronounced.

travelingtarotmancer Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:09 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
(travelingtarotmancer wrote:) What I mean is that the vertical ridges that indicate health problems
are somewhat less common. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Our liver is
always detoxifying our bodies making it so you always have the lines to a
sleight degree.
Did I understand this correctly - you are saying that vertical ridges that indicate health problems are somewhat less common than vertical ridges that do not indicate health problems? In your first post it seemed you were saying that vertical ridges are somewhat less common than horizontal ridges, hence our arguments -you only have to look at lots of hands to know that you see more vertical ridges than horizontal.

Did you read any medical / scientific studies that correlate nail ridges with liver problems? I've never heard it before.... and I'm not sure it is true? Looking at a small sample of hands of alcoholics, people with hepatitis, cirrhosis, I noticed how unusually flat and smooth the nails were (in my perception, I am not stating it as fact). (PS I guess the flatness was bordering on 'spoon shaped nails', also pale - probably anaemia??).

Hi Lynn,

I am quite sure that there is no connection between liver disease and vertical ridges in the nails. And there is plenty of evidence that (chronice) liver disease typically manifest via other aspects of the nails (related to the color & curve of the nails), see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrhosis#Signs_and_symptoms

While vertical ridges are usually harmless (just like the wrinkles of the skin) and often resulting from the process of aging, there are a few disorders that have been associated with vertical ridges:
- arthritis, kidney problems, anemia (iron deficiency), and arteriosclerosis.

Beaven & Brooks describe a conncection between 'vertical (longitudinal) ridges' with chronic obstructive airways.

Also on this website about 'ridges in fingernails' there is no association described between vertical ridges & liver problems:
http://www.ridgesinfingernails.org/ridges-in-fingernails/what-ridges-in-fingernails-can-say-about-your-health

('Google scholar' also does not present any single confirming clue for travelingtarotmancer's suggestion)

Finally, the following article (including the picture below) describes how 'vertical ridges' directly result from the growth direction of the nail because they correspond to the papillae inside the corium:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/180/3/265.short

(NOTICE: Brittle nails or onychorrhexis can be understood as resulting from some kind of malfunction/malshaping in the papillae of the corium inside the nail bed!)

Longitudinal Section Through Nail And Nail-Bed Of A Human Foetal Finger:
A, The Nail; B, The Rete Mucosum; C, The Longitudinal Ridges Of The Corium.

http://www.lpch.org/DiseaseHealthInfo/HealthLibrary/digest/liverant.html
http://hpathy.com/homeopathy-papers/fingernails-and-what-they-reveal/
I beleive this quote (in the top link) "regulation of blood levels of amino acids, which form the building blocks of proteins" on how the liver works has something to do with how the liver helps form proteins, that if it malfunctioned would probably cause verticle lines in the nails. Because the liver has to do with the actual formation of the proteins not the kidneys.

travelingtarotmancer Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:15 am

You guys aren't really listening to me .....

what i mean is verticle ridges that indicate health problems are somewhat less common than horizontal ridges. Simply because horizontal ridges have a more overall reflection on a persons health so it would start with a horizontal ridge and could lead to a vertical ridge that would indicate a health problem. That seems to be Lori's case.
Heres some info on how the liver and kidneys work. Basically the liver filters what the kidney's cannot. I would say the vertical lines are somewhat of a result of the liver and kidneys not functioning well together. The verticle ridges becoming enhanced with age and set in of disease. Look at the case of Beau's lines, verticle ridges and psoriasis, in lower link.
http://www.lpch.org/DiseaseHealthInfo/HealthLibrary/digest/liverant.html
http://hpathy.com/homeopathy-papers/fingernails-and-what-they-reveal/
I beleive this quote (in the top link) "regulation of blood levels of amino acids, which form the building blocks of proteins" on how the liver works has something to do with how the liver helps form proteins, that if it malfunctioned would probably cause verticle lines in the nails. Because the liver has to do with the actual formation of the proteins not the kidneys. In the case of Bau's lines high acidity in the blood can cause problems such as lowering the immune system leading to any range of acute or moderate illnesses. I have personally found that I can monitor my own blood acidity by feeling the horizontal ridges in my nails. I have also read both of these subjects in a book i beleive to be this one http://www.alibris.com/booksearch.detail?invid=10962219045&browse=1&qwork=2803141&qsort=&page=1.

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:46 pm

travelingtarotmancer wrote:
http://www.lpch.org/DiseaseHealthInfo/HealthLibrary/digest/liverant.html
http://hpathy.com/homeopathy-papers/fingernails-and-what-they-reveal/
I beleive this quote (in the top link) "regulation of blood levels of amino acids, which form the building blocks of proteins" on how the liver works has something to do with how the liver helps form proteins, that if it malfunctioned would probably cause verticle lines in the nails. Because the liver has to do with the actual formation of the proteins not the kidneys.

Hello again!

Sorry Tarotmancer, your 'believe' simply still doesn't make sense to me, because your 1st source does not relate to nails (nor the vertical ridges), and your 2nd source also does not suggest that there is a link between liver problems and vertical ridges.

Therefore your suggestion that both sources provide a basis for your hypothesis that (pronounced) veritical ridges can indicate a liver problem ... can probably best be described as 'speculative'. There is no evidence which confirms your hypothesis (and I would not be surprized if the earlier source that you mentioned also does not contain any evidence for your hypothesis - btw I am familiar with the content of the book that you mentioned earlier)

PS. Especially in the past authors of palmistry books have often presented theories about how medical problems manifest in the hand; but usually it is hard to say whether these theories should be treated as representing 'hard evidence', 'speculative explorations', 'passages copied from other sources', or 'anecdotal evidence'.

Therefore I would recommend you to treat those materials in palmistry books with caution - especially when medical sources have not presented any confirming evidence for a specific theory, like we have seen in your example.

(Sorry Tarotmancer, this is not about how we 'listen' to your words, this is about that your theory is quite unlikely... especially in the perspective that, again, liver problems typically manifest via other features of the nails - such as the color & the curve of the nails)

PPS. If you still think that you found (anecdotal) evidence for your theory in cases of liver problems... then IF your assessment of the nail characteristics itself was correct, maybe you should consider the possibility of a 'spurious link' between the disease and your observation. I hope this suggestion makes sense for you.

You are welcome to read & respond to my (new) article about vertical ridges in the nails:
http://www.handresearch.com/news/vertical-ridges-fingernails-causes.htm

(Our discussion here inspired me to compose & write this article! Thanks!

)

travelingtarotmancer Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:38 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
travelingtarotmancer wrote:
http://www.lpch.org/DiseaseHealthInfo/HealthLibrary/digest/liverant.html
http://hpathy.com/homeopathy-papers/fingernails-and-what-they-reveal/
I beleive this quote (in the top link) "regulation of blood levels of amino acids, which form the building blocks of proteins" on how the liver works has something to do with how the liver helps form proteins, that if it malfunctioned would probably cause verticle lines in the nails. Because the liver has to do with the actual formation of the proteins not the kidneys.

Hello again!

Sorry Tarotmancer, your 'believe' simply still doesn't make sense to me, because your 1st source does not relate to nails (nor the vertical ridges), and your 2nd source also does not suggest that there is a link between liver problems and vertical ridges.

Therefore your suggestion that both sources provide a basis for your hypothesis that (pronounced) veritical ridges can indicate a liver problem ... can probably best be described as 'speculative'. There is no evidence which confirms your hypothesis (and I would not be surprized if the earlier source that you mentioned also does not contain any evidence for your hypothesis - btw I am familiar with the content of the book that you mentioned earlier)

PS. Especially in the past authors of palmistry books have often presented theories about how medical problems manifest in the hand; but usually it is hard to say whether these theories should be treated as representing 'hard evidence', 'speculative explorations', 'passages copied from other sources', or 'anecdotal evidence'.

Therefore I would recommend you to treat those materials in palmistry books with caution - especially when medical sources have not presented any confirming evidence for a specific theory, like we have seen in your example.

(Sorry Tarotmancer, this is not about how we 'listen' to your words, this is about that your theory is quite unlikely... especially in the perspective that, again, liver problems typically manifest via other features of the nails - such as the color & the curve of the nails)

PPS. If you still think that you found (anecdotal) evidence for your theory in cases of liver problems... then IF your assessment of the nail characteristics itself was correct, maybe you should consider the possibility of a 'spurious link' between the disease and your observation. I hope this suggestion makes sense for you.

You are welcome to read & respond to my (new) article about vertical ridges in the nails:
http://www.handresearch.com/news/vertical-ridges-fingernails-causes.htm

(Our discussion here inspired me to compose & write this article! )

Ok, so from what ive seen that is in general acceptance medically and scientifically...
The curvature in nails is said to be due to heart, liver, and/or respiritory problems. The yellowing of the nail has been linked to liver, lymphatic, and/or respiritory problems. The vertical ridges have been associated with kidney disorders, iron deficiancy, arthritis, and/or age. Horizontal ridges with minor illness or trauma.
Anemia has been said to be caused by kidney and liver problems.
Anemia leads to arthritis.
Liver disease leads to kidney disease.
Kidney disease is commonly caused by diabetes type 1 and 2 as, well as hepatitis b and c (both liver related diseases). In conclusion I believe vertical ridges have something to do with the liver and kidneys not functioning well together as i have said in my previous statement. I found this conclusion because the minor problems associated with vertical ridges i.e. arthritis and anemia are caused by Kidney and/or liver problems.
The real problem here is not having a few cases to study with vertical ridges.I have learned from personal experience vertical ridges usually indicate liver problems especially with age.

oh yea and you might want to fix the spelling errors in your article in the section
"VERTICAL NAIL RIDGES IN THE ELDERLY"

**Lynn** Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:42 pm

hi travellingtarotmancer,
do you have any links that explain this?..... "Anemia leads to arthritis."

I have read that up to 60% of people with rheumatoid arthritis also have anaemia, but it seemed like various things associated with the arthritis (inflammation, digestive bleeding due to the arthritis drugs etc) caused the anaemia, rather than the anaemia leading to arthritis. (?)

**Felicity Martin** Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:23 am

Thank you to Lori for posting you photos,

they will certainly remain in my consciousness for some time... the chronic stress certainly has multiple impacts in people of all ages including, in the development of expanded waistlines.
This is important as many assume the person has bad diet habits, but is a strong indicator of an unbalance of the hypothalamus/ pituatary/adrenal axis through stress. This then triggers the cortisol production and in your case leading to adrenal exhaustion- the reason I came across this was due to research for my chosen student's essay in Psychology on depression and suicide in rural areas.
I always use this to gain some insight as to when whether stressors may have been present when horizontal ridges are present, though often it can also be post trauma, and chemotherapy.

But also would like to ask Martjin about pearl drop- or string of beads line/vertical, I remeber vaguely they can indicate rheumatism?
Cheers Felicity

**Felicity Martin** Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:35 am

Hi Tarotmancer,

If there is 'no evidence' of a connectin between nail appearance and liver disease, it can also mean there has been no research or easily accessable research in that area... perhaps you could go to a forum of people living with liver disease and ask, after explaining why, if people would post photos of their nails, and changes that may have occured... you need at least 30 for a basic quanititative study.

By 'spurious' Martjin means, I am sure helpfully though a little bluntly, that you have drawn an association that may have a third or fourth factor, of which you are unaware, impacting on the nails. It would be a good exercise to keep photographic records, with permission and respecting privacy, along with a brief case history of exposure to drugs, medications ,trauma etc.

Sounds fascinating!

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:12 am

travelingtarotmancer wrote:
...
oh yea and you might want to fix the spelling errors in your article in the section
"VERTICAL NAIL RIDGES IN THE ELDERLY"

Thanks. I have corrected the errors.

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:29 am

Felicity Martin wrote:
...
But also would like to ask Martjin about pearl drop- or string of beads line/vertical, I remeber vaguely they can indicate rheumatism?
Cheers Felicity

Yes Felicity, that is correct.

But I would prefer to consider 'nail beading' (which requires little bumps to be present on the surface of the nail - usually only on a minor surface of the nail) as a separate topic... not to be confused with nail ridges.

PS. Nail beading has also been associated with e.g. Diabetes mellitus, Thyroid disorders, Addison's disease, and Vitamin B deficiency.

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