Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Patti wrote:It's more an association than a conclusion.

Babler's earlier theory was about relating volar pad height and size to fingerprint pattern. His later research showed the pattern was directly related to bone width. Narrow bones were found to be related to whorl patterns.

"Results of this study indicated that digital pattern type (arch, loop or whorl) is associated with the shape of the volar pad at the time of ridge formation. However, this association is related only to pad width. Pattern type is also associated with shape of the bony distal phalanx. These data underscore the importance of understanding the developmental basis of dermatoglyphic variation."

Articles by William Babler
...

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:It's more an association than a conclusion.

Babler's earlier theory was about relating volar pad height and size to fingerprint pattern. His later research showed the pattern was directly related to bone width. Narrow bones were found to be related to whorl patterns.

"Results of this study indicated that digital pattern type (arch, loop or whorl) is associated with the shape of the volar pad at the time of ridge formation. However, this association is related only to pad width. Pattern type is also associated with shape of the bony distal phalanx. These data underscore the importance of understanding the developmental basis of dermatoglyphic variation."

Articles by William Babler
...

Patti, okay... I can understand your assocation.

But can you point out for me: where exactly did you find that Babler suggests that fingerprint type relates to bone width?


NOTICE: I am asking because in the following article Babler presents results which describe that there is no correlation between pattern type and 'apical taft' width (= distal end of the distal phalange) - http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf

Quoted from page 300:

"Using analysis of covariance procedures to adjust for increasing size due to age, no signficant differences between pattern types was found for either length of the distal phalanx or width of the tuft."

Patti wrote:http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_W_1991.pdf

"Recently, Babler has examined the developmental relationships between epidermal ridges and the developing bone skeleton of the hand. He has shown a significant prenatal relationship between epidermal ridge dimension and bone dimension of the hand. Bone dimensions, both in length of the cartilaginous model and bone collar, of distal phalanges and metacarpals were significantly correlated to digital epidermal ridge dimensions."

There is another quote that directly states that a narrow distal fingertip was related to a whorl pattern. I think it might be in one of Plato's books and I'm not near my books right now.

Patti wrote:Thanks Martijn for your input.

I was referring to a report by Babler that would have been in one of Chris Plato's books. I'll look when I get a chance.

Aha... now I see what you mean: Babler's article is also presented in Plato's book 'Dermatoglyphics: Science in Transition' (1991).

And you are probably referring to this sentence in Babler's article (page 06 - http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_W_1991.pdf):

"http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_W_1991.pdf"


And after re-studying Babler's 1987 article again (http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf), I understand that the quote probably relates to the result found for the RADIAL LOOP.

Hmmm... those results in table 4 may look impressive, however, Babler also notifies explicitely that the radial loop sample was rather small (N=5) ... while there were 94 fetuses involved in that study.

But while the results in table 5 are not significant, but if the results for the radial loops had been included in table 5 as well... that could have produced a (small) significant result.

However, when we compared the size of the effect with the results found for 'volar pad width' (see table 2), then we should conclude that the effect-size for the radial loop is much smaller.


So Patti, at best Babler's study only suggest a correlation between finger print type and the 'tuft width' vs. 'distal phalange length'.... but only based on the result for the radial loop.

But 'tuft width' is no direct measure of the width of the distal phalange. So, this study provides no evidence for your assumption that phalange width correlates with fingerprint pattern type.

(Babbler only was able to measure the length of the distal phalange, but not the width of the distal phalange... probably because the width of the distal phalanges was 'inflatted' by the presence of the rather wide volar pads!)



Finally, I also notice that Babler wrote in his 1991 article:

"Whorl patterns tend to be associated with shorter distal phalanges"

... But for me this doesn't make sense at all in the perspective of the conclusion in the 1987 article:

"Using analysis of covariance procedures to adjust for increasing size due to age, no signficant differences between pattern types was found for either length of the distal phalanx or width of the tuft."

So, I guess I would need his 1989 article as well to understand ... because the results in table 5 of the 1987 article suggest that arches appear to be associated with relatively the shortest distal phalanges (when compared to volar pad with).


... Anyway, none of the 3 articles presented by Babler appears to suggests a direct connection between fingerprint pattern and the width of the distal phalange.

Nevertheless... it is interesting to remember that Babler's result suggest that there could be a link between relatively long, narrow distal phalanges and a radial loop.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
But 'tuft width' is no direct measure of the width of the distal phalange. So, this study provides no evidence for your assumption that phalange width correlates with fingerprint pattern type.

(Babbler only was able to measure the length of the distal phalange, but not the width of the distal phalange... probably because the width of the distal phalanges was 'inflatted' by the presence of the rather wide volar pads!)

Finally, I also notice that Babler wrote in his 1991 article:

"Whorl patterns tend to be associated with shorter distal phalanges"

... But for me this doesn't make sense at all in the perspective of the conclusion in the 1987 article:

"Using analysis of covariance procedures to adjust for increasing size due to age, no signficant differences between pattern types was found for either length of the distal phalanx or width of the tuft."

So, I guess I would need his 1989 article as well to understand ... because the results in table 5 of the 1987 article suggest that arches appear to be associated with relatively the shortest distal phalanges (when compared to volar pad with).


... Anyway, none of the 3 articles presented by Babler appears to suggests a direct connection between fingerprint pattern and the width of the distal phalange.

Nevertheless... it is interesting to remember that Babler's result suggest that there could be a link between relatively long, narrow distal phalanges and a radial loop.

Lynn wrote:Thanks for your interesting posts Patti :-)

Patti wrote:
I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.

From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:

"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."

http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:
I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.

From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:

"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."

http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf

Patti... you appear to assume that 'distal phalange width' is an indicator for 'volar pad width', but the effect-sizes in the 1987 article tell me that this is not the case.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:
I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.

From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:

"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."

http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf

Patti... you appear to assume that 'distal phalange width' is an indicator for 'volar pad width', but the effect-sizes in the 1987 article tell me that this is not the case.


Please remember, I have pointed out to the passages which explicitely described that both 'distal phalange length' and 'tuft width' do not correlate with pattern type.

And therefore there is in Babler's work also no foundation for making the assumption that nail width correlates with fingerprint type, which you suggested in the second message of this topic:

"This should relate the fingernail shape to the fingerprint!"

(The wikipedia quote only describes the general structure, but does not point out to any correlations in the typical variantions that could make a link to fingerprint type - which you mentioned as the essential part of your question as you mentioned in the title of this topic)

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:
I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.

From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:

"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."

http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf

Patti... you appear to assume that 'distal phalange width' is an indicator for 'volar pad width', but the effect-sizes in the 1987 article tell me that this is not the case.

I don't think I've said that at all.

I compared distal bone width to fingerprint, and volar pad width to fingerprint. My post is about comparing fingerprint to fingernail via the widths of volar pad or distal bone.

p.s.: This association is in reference to prenatal conditions.

Yes Patti... you indeed have not said that. But it is quite obvious for my how you make your 'assocations': you have been jumping via volar pad width, and distal phalange shape, to nail width!

However, from the link between fingerprint type with 1) volar pad width and 2) distal phalange shape ... you can not jump into the assumption/conclusion that fingerprint type also correlates with nail width.

Especially, since you appear to underestimate the consequences of the fact that there is even contradictionary evidence:

Again, Babler explicitely described that the facts show that both distal phalange length and tuft width do NOT correlate with fingerprint type.


And then it would only be common sense to assume that distal phalange width does NOT correlate with fingerprint type either.

... Resulting in that according these 'logics', my conclusion so far is:
It is even UNLIKELY that fingernail width correlates with fingerprint type.

(and I repeat: I am not sure that the fingernail width can be described as a 'constant' measure either)

I hope that my conclusion now makes sense for you as well?