Re: What About Mounts and Apex On Them?

Patti Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:34 am

Lynn wrote:(edit I notice someone has posted while I was writing, I've not read it yet!)

Kiran, you make some good points

Late here, but Patti I just want to add re
But if elements were a perfect system to use for hands... it would be more balanced... like mixing colors...or a spectrum
The 5 element system is a spectrum! Of the elements in order of ascending refinement.
From the most static, dense, solid, tangible element (earth) to the most dispersed, invisible, discrete, intangible (air).
as Kiran says, the primary colours are red, yellow and blue, and yet you can find a spectrum of colours from mixing those. With elements (excluding ether) we have one more to add to the mix/spectrum.
re mixing colours and "it wouldn't be a concern that there can't be such a thing as a water/earth hand shape". But what if we were to eliminate "sludgy brown" from the colour spectrum. Doesn't that reduce the number of colours that you can mix in the wonderful spectrum? ;-)

Yes, this is where we agree.

Where I think we have to be concerned is when instead of viewing the hand and noticing things like the description for water is appropriate for the area that includes the hypothenar area and earth works well for characteristics shown by the thenar area that all lower quadrants would be water and earth. That is taking a symbolic system and applying it arbitrarily without any rationale other than applying a system.

**Parender** Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:05 am

@ Martijn,

Did you mean there are three apexes on the palm of the hand? I have taken it for granted up to now that there are four. What I know is this that-

Physiologically these Mounts which are the pads or balls of flesh, small hill type bulge up from the palm like a camel’s back and may be found exact under the fingers or under between the two fingers. These are found at other parts of the palm too. Yes, it is not necessary that ‘apex’ be found exactly on the Mount under the particular finger.

We have four fingers and there should be four apexes (not three apexes) each named after the particular finger. Three are the ‘loops’ and that might be found between the two fingers. In my experiences I often found four apexes while analyzing the hands. If we assume there are three Mounts only then what about the fourth finger or fourth Mount.

Mounts might be high or low or flat as the case may be. It is also right that in order to be able to interpret the lines and their effects on us; it is necessary to have an understanding of the Mounts on the palms too. If high bulging mount is found with particular location then this position raises, increases and promotes the qualities and strength of the Mount in a person

Apexes and loops are made for each other. There might be loops or not but apexes are generally found. And these are four not three. Will you please elaborate there are three apexes on the palms of the hands?I Thanks.

Sethi Parender

**Kiran.Katawa** Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:38 am

Patti wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote: For ex: If a star is placed in the water quadarnt of Jupiter mount. That's I think of using it.

Applying a quadrant like system to each of the areas under the fingers relates to assuming that the hand is in agreement to this system. How would one go about deciding which quadrant is which element for that matter? What would be the qualifications? Would someone just 'make it up'? i.e. Earth is always lower left on the left hand and lower right on the right hand - without any research or studies to see if it's valid?

And.........if the hand was so segmented into elements, one could rationalize the brain would have been naturally divided into lobes that dealt with these elements individually.

Okay. If we have to question the segmentation of the hand based on 5E then even the inner/outer division or mental/physical division also has to be questioned. Isn't it?
As per my knowledge- this quadarant system has been studied for several years and so has come in existence and is used and being found accurate by many hand reading experts. What else are you expecting from research/studies here?

About the vice-versa case of "brain would have been naturally divided into lobes": This may be a open question. There is a theory in maths: If a --> b, it doesn't mean that b-->a. Anyways, again the vice-versa rule goes for any kind of hand division.

Martijn has a point/subject for research here Smile

**Kiran.Katawa** Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:59 am

Patti wrote:
I wouldn't give as much significance to a star formation in a particular quadrant of a mount per se. I would look to see what influenced the formation of this configuration. How the hand flexes - what is pulling the creases their way would be important. If the 'star' is small enough to fit into a quarter of a section immediately under a finger, then it is small enough to be temporary.

I am referring to QUADRANT, am also making a reference to the positioning.

About - "I wouldn't give as much significance to a star formation in a particular quadrant of a mount per se", Then, how do you differentiate between a lower-left cornered star from that of a upper-right cornered star on Jupiter mount in terms on their influence on the person's behavior( say, his leadership qualities)?!

What influenced the formation is 1 thing. How about what are the consequences of this formation?

Patti Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:01 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Patti wrote:
I wouldn't give as much significance to a star formation in a particular quadrant of a mount per se. I would look to see what influenced the formation of this configuration. How the hand flexes - what is pulling the creases their way would be important. If the 'star' is small enough to fit into a quarter of a section immediately under a finger, then it is small enough to be temporary.
I am referring to QUADRANT, am also making a reference to the positioning.

About - "I wouldn't give as much significance to a star formation in a particular quadrant of a mount per se", Then, how do you differentiate between a lower-left cornered star from that of a upper-right cornered star on Jupiter mount in terms on their influence on the person's behavior( say, his leadership qualities)?!

What influenced the formation is 1 thing. How about what are the consequences of this formation?

Hi Kiran,
After more than 30 years of reading hands I've found that something like a tiny star formation rarely stands alone. Such tiny crossing features more likely than anything else represent 'stress'. They really do not have big meanings like marriage, new job, fame and fortune etc. A person may be experiencing something big and important which causes stress markings but the markings themselves do not mean what they've been assigned to mean.

Perhaps if you could accurately determine what a particular small patch of territory on the palm really signified you could probably tune into what is causing the stress. Basically it's enough to comment or make note for 'reading combinations of featues' that there's current stress in the area of leadership and authority. The idea that each quandrant could accurately narrow it down to something that complies with a particular element seems logical, but not biological.

Yet at the same time, I would certainly use my own system of making note of whether it's more or less radial, ulnar, distal or proximal in it's location.

Last night I gave some more thought to your suggestion for mounts being dividied into quardrants labelled as elements. I looked through my books with authors who use a system that works with elements (and there really are not so many) and stumbled on a page in Chinese Hand Analysis by Terry Dukes. I know he doesn't hold much respect among some members here who knew him, but I don't know what they think of his work.

He suggested to put these quadrants on all the mounts!!

Which would look something like this:

What About Mounts and Apex On Them? - Page 2 Print10

What About Mounts and Apex On Them? - Page 2 Print10

(I forgot the mount of Neptune, but I think you get the picture)

I'll scan the page from Dukes for you shortly. Lynn asked where you had come across this concept. This is the only book I have that mentions it.

Patti Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:21 pm

Kiran, here are a couple of pages from Duke's book I mentioned above. I think what you are describing is exactly what he is illustrating here except that he also shows a bullseye template for those high peaks.

(this concept of blocks of division drives me Hopeless

(joking

) I think all territories of the hands contain all the elements)

What About Mounts and Apex On Them? - Page 2 Dukes110

What About Mounts and Apex On Them? - Page 2 Dukes310

Some of Duke's idea may have come from Fred Gettings. I'll share that next.

If you read the text in the 2nd image that I uploaded, you can tell that the fine tuning of the meaning, per location and element, is very 'general' and suggestive. Such as right at the top of the second image... it says a marking in a particular area could represent a predisposition to illness. (sounds like stress to me) Anyone could say that to anyone at anytime and be correct. i.e. "take care of yourself so you don't get sick."

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:49 pm

Parender wrote:@ Martijn,

Did you mean there are three apexes on the palm of the hand? I have taken it for granted up to now that there are four.

Hi Parender,

No, you somehow made an incorrect association: I basically only tried to describe that there are only 3 mounts below the 4 fingers. But of course: there are usually 4 triradii below the fingers.

(The 5th triradius - usually found at the hypothenar/mount of moon - should be understood in the perspective of the location of the thumb).

Maybe I should have described my point as follows: usually there is 1 triradius (apex) found below each finger, but the 'mounts' are nearly always found between at least 2 triradii.

And just like one can seen in fingerprints: these mounts are typically found at the locations where a palmar dermatoglyphic loop (or whorl) can be spotted at the locations between the fingers.

(The same principle is true for the lower palmar zones - though for these zones it is much harder to understand why the loops and whorls are less often seen in those zones... but at the end this probably relates e.g. to the distance between the palmar triradii + the distance between the triradii and the outside borders of the hand: palmar loops/whorls tend to occure less often at locations where the triradii are positioned at a relatively large distance from the outside border)

Anyway, thank you for your question!

Thumb up

**Kiran.Katawa** Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:36 am

Patti wrote:Kiran, here are a couple of pages from Duke's book I mentioned above. I think what you are describing is exactly what he is illustrating here except that he also shows a bullseye template for those high peaks.

(this concept of blocks of division drives me (joking ) I think all territories of the hands contain all the elements)

Some of Duke's idea may have come from Fred Gettings. I'll share that next.

If you read the text in the 2nd image that I uploaded, you can tell that the fine tuning of the meaning, per location and element, is very 'general' and suggestive. Such as right at the top of the second image... it says a marking in a particular area could represent a predisposition to illness. (sounds like stress to me) Anyone could say that to anyone at anytime and be correct. i.e. "take care of yourself so you don't get sick."

Thanks a lot Patti. Very interesting pages. I wish you could have uploaded the whole book :p. Can you please tell me how is this book - Chinese Palmistry? I'll purchase it.
It has added more to my knowledge on the positioning of markings on the mounts.

About : " I think all territories of the hands contain all the elements)"
How can this be possible? Can we say that the mount of moon(which represents Water zone) indicates things like - warmth, destruction, active, enthusiastic, assertive, excitement, motivation, goal directed, etc, which belong to Upper-Right quadrant of Fire.

**Kiran.Katawa** Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:16 am

Patti wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Patti wrote:
I wouldn't give as much significance to a star formation in a particular quadrant of a mount per se. I would look to see what influenced the formation of this configuration. How the hand flexes - what is pulling the creases their way would be important. If the 'star' is small enough to fit into a quarter of a section immediately under a finger, then it is small enough to be temporary.
I am referring to QUADRANT, am also making a reference to the positioning.

About - "I wouldn't give as much significance to a star formation in a particular quadrant of a mount per se", Then, how do you differentiate between a lower-left cornered star from that of a upper-right cornered star on Jupiter mount in terms on their influence on the person's behavior( say, his leadership qualities)?!

What influenced the formation is 1 thing. How about what are the consequences of this formation?

Hi Kiran,
After more than 30 years of reading hands I've found that something like a tiny star formation rarely stands alone. Such tiny crossing features more likely than anything else represent 'stress'. They really do not have big meanings like marriage, new job, fame and fortune etc. A person may be experiencing something big and important which causes stress markings but the markings themselves do not mean what they've been assigned to mean.

Perhaps if you could accurately determine what a particular small patch of territory on the palm really signified you could probably tune into what is causing the stress. Basically it's enough to comment or make note for 'reading combinations of featues' that there's current stress in the area of leadership and authority. The idea that each quandrant could accurately narrow it down to something that complies with a particular element seems logical, but not biological.

Yet at the same time, I would certainly use my own system of making note of whether it's more or less radial, ulnar, distal or proximal in it's location.

Last night I gave some more thought to your suggestion for mounts being dividied into quardrants labelled as elements. I looked through my books with authors who use a system that works with elements (and there really are not so many) and stumbled on a page in Chinese Hand Analysis by Terry Dukes. I know he doesn't hold much respect among some members here who knew him, but I don't know what they think of his work.

He suggested to put these quadrants on all the mounts!!

Which would look something like this:

(I forgot the mount of Neptune, but I think you get the picture)

I'll scan the page from Dukes for you shortly. Lynn asked where you had come across this concept. This is the only book I have that mentions it.

Why are you giving STRESS indications for a small star marking?
If so then what are the indications for a small X marking, small triangle, small square?

Patti Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:09 am

Kiran.Katawa wrote:Why are you giving STRESS indications for a small star marking?
If so then what are the indications for a small X marking, small triangle, small square?

When you see many star like patterns across people's hands they tend to be on nervous, excitable types. These markings can represent little outbursts of energy. Like adrenalin shots or rushes. I'd view a single one as more focused or intense. How this energy plays out is different in different people, but the marking is there to show the body is having a stress response to something. Too many of these in a small area or patch turns into a haze or veil and shows the body is very stressed. These are often seen under the little finger and/or the area below the heart line.

Stress might have been too generalized of a term, but most of the time small markings appear on the palms in regards to the bodies' response to life experiences. We try to interpret these stars/crosses etc. as events because there is likely an event at the heart of the stress.

**Kiran.Katawa** Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:41 am

Patti wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:Why are you giving STRESS indications for a small star marking?
If so then what are the indications for a small X marking, small triangle, small square?

When you see many star like patterns across people's hands they tend to be on nervous, excitable types. These markings can represent little outbursts of energy. Like adrenalin shots or rushes. I'd view a single one as more focused or intense. How this energy plays out is different in different people, but the marking is there to show the body is having a stress response to something. Too many of these in a small area or patch turns into a haze or veil and shows the body is very stressed. These are often seen under the little finger and/or the area below the heart line.

Stress might have been too generalized of a term, but most of the time small markings appear on the palms in regards to the bodies' response to life experiences. We try to interpret these stars/crosses etc. as events because there is likely an event at the heart of the stress.

Okay. B.t.w. can you please tell me how is this book - Chinese Palmistry? If its good, I'll purchase it.

Patti Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:03 pm

I wouldn't recommend it, but you may like it because of how it uses the elements. Lynn and Christopher here are familiar with the author and his work. There's a good chance he simply made up the information.

http://www.cheirology.net/cheirologicalsociety/csorigins.htm

Patti Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:30 pm

What About Mounts and Apex On Them? - Page 2 Fred_g13

Fred Gettings, The Book of the Hand, offers here what he sees as the earliest approach to matching the 4 temperaments to psychological aspects.

He says:

"We shall now examine the four elemental types in detail, remembering that no person is a pure type, and every person contains within him some degree of the qualities of all types. Each element partakes, to some extent, of every other element, the combinations are infinite, and no person belongs to any one type."

Patti Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:45 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
About : " I think all territories of the hands contain all the elements)"
How can this be possible? Can we say that the mount of moon(which represents Water zone) indicates things like - warmth, destruction, active, enthusiastic, assertive, excitement, motivation, goal directed, etc, which belong to Upper-Right quadrant of Fire.

Yes we can say that water represents these things, but not as a solitary element. Water can boil. Floods destroy. Waves are active. Spring brooks look enthusiastic as do waterfalls. Tsunamis are assertive. Water can teach us about goal directions and facing obstacles. Wink

It just expreses itself in a watery style.

**Lynn** Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:55 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:About : " I think all territories of the hands contain all the elements)"
How can this be possible? Can we say that the mount of moon(which represents Water zone) indicates things like - warmth, destruction, active, enthusiastic, assertive, excitement, motivation, goal directed, etc, which belong to Upper-Right quadrant of Fire.

Patti wrote:Each element partakes, to some extent, of every other element

Kiran the water quadrant does contain the moon mount, but also Pluto mount, & maybe half of the passive Mars mount. It also contains half of the earth zone when dividing the palm into elements horizontally. Water quadrant might have e.g. fire skin texture, it can contain the air section of a curved major air (head) line, the earth section of the fire (fate) line, the earth and water sections of a true minor water line (curve of intuition), part of the minor air (Mercury) line.

regarding Patti's comment "Water can teach us about goal directions and facing obstacles. Wink

It just expresses itself in a watery style." Yes, it will go about these things in a watery manner. They will just do it differently.
Looking at some of your keywords above eg Fiery person may have a goal to become manager at work within two years. Watery person might have a goal for everyone in the office to get along as a harmonious team. Fire might be enthusiastic about writing a business plan, water might be more enthusiastic about writing a poem ;-) etc etc.

**Kiran.Katawa** Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:45 am

Yeah Lynn. Got it. I was bit deviated in my thots on this. Now, its clear.

**Kiran.Katawa** Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:46 am

Patti wrote:I wouldn't recommend it, but you may like it because of how it uses the elements. Lynn and Christopher here are familiar with the author and his work. There's a good chance he simply made up the information.

http://www.cheirology.net/cheirologicalsociety/csorigins.htm

Thank you Patti.

**Lynn** Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:17 am

Kiran, I don't think you need to buy Dukes' book - yet. It is not an easy book to read, and whilst it contains some great information it would be hard for you to know which bits are relevant/accurate/useful. Jen's course will contain the most useful things from Dukes' book, so I'd recommend you wait until you've done the course.

**Kiran.Katawa** Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:32 am

Okay. Thank you Patti.

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