Re: Can Thumb be called venus finger?

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:28 am

Hello Patti & Magda,

Okay, I understand the thoughts you shared - thank you both for explaining!

But for me it continues to be a strange combination: seeing the 'planetary archetypes' being used in hand reading combined with the idea that hand reading has no connection with astrology. Because from my point of view, the idea that hand reading doesn't need astrology... implicates that in hand reading we do not need the use of the 'planetary archetypes' - which are being used in astrology!

(For the same reason I usually prefer to use the medical terminology for the fingers & palmar zones - though sometimes I add the names that are being used in classic palmistry).

PS. In Ed's book vulcan is mentioned on pages 15, 16, 71 and 89. He describes that vulcan has only been used in modern palmistry, just like the 'mystery planets' (neptunus, uranus & pluto).

I would like to add that there has been considerable discussion about where to find those 'planetary influences' in the hand - various palmists have even putten some of them at different locations.

Regarding vulcan, very few palmists have adopted that rather strange (non-planetary) element in their work. Magda has described vulcan in her book, but Magda attached it to a slightly different location (between venus & the second phalange of the thumb) than the location described by Ed (between the mount of mars and venus)!!!

NOTICE: Ed has corrected figure 15 in his book with the following erratum at his website:

"Figure on page 15. Lower Mars should be raised. It still lies on the same side of the hand, but between the two horizontal lines. Vulcan should be moved up to sit where Lower Mars now sits. Venus can be raised to about where Vulcan is."

http://www.edcampbell.com/ERRATA.htm

**Lynn** Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:08 am

hi Martijn,

re

for me it continues to be a strange combination: seeing the 'planetary archetypes' being used in hand reading combined with the idea that hand reading has no connection with astrology. Because from my point of view, the idea that hand reading doesn't need astrology... implicates that in hand reading we do not need the use of the 'planetary archetypes' - which are being used in astrology!

As Patti said, the nomenclature doesn't necessarily have to be about the planets. It could be the Greek or Roman Gods. Or we can use the four elements of water, earth, fire, air. People have always used symbolic and mythological references to teach and understand about archetypes. eg I never think about the planet Mercury, I think about Mercurius or Hermes, god of trade, messenger of the Gods with his winged sandals. Mercury is also the air finger - communication etc. Or eg. Apollo - the Sun god with his lyre for music & the arts, athletic ability, the fire element with it's love of sport & risk-taking (even Manning has proved these connections!). It's not really about planets or gods or elements, it's just symbolic. I'm not sure what your problem is with this? For me and many others, the name "Apollo" or "Fire" conjures up more instant associations, symbols and connotations than "Digit IV". Wink

**anand_palm** Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:17 am

Hello all,

I remember somewhere in the forum about planetarty position in astrology to finger and mount areas. I suppose the person name is upendra bhadoirya he had put some hindu chart. But the important thingh is meaning of the area which you are studying. If thumb is venus then attributes of venus have to be given to it.

Thanks
Anand

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:43 pm

Lynn wrote:hi Martijn,

re
for me it continues to be a strange combination: seeing the 'planetary archetypes' being used in hand reading combined with the idea that hand reading has no connection with astrology. Because from my point of view, the idea that hand reading doesn't need astrology... implicates that in hand reading we do not need the use of the 'planetary archetypes' - which are being used in astrology!

As Patti said, the nomenclature doesn't necessarily have to be about the planets. It could be the Greek or Roman Gods. Or we can use the four elements of water, earth, fire, air. People have always used symbolic and mythological references to teach and understand about archetypes. eg I never think about the planet Mercury, I think about Mercurius or Hermes, god of trade, messenger of the Gods with his winged sandals. Mercury is also the air finger - communication etc. Or eg. Apollo - the Sun god with his lyre for music & the arts, athletic ability, the fire element with it's love of sport & risk-taking (even Manning has proved these connections!). It's not really about planets or gods or elements, it's just symbolic. I'm not sure what your problem is with this? For me and many others, the name "Apollo" or "Fire" conjures up more instant associations, symbols and connotations than "Digit IV".

Hi Lynn,

Yes, I understand what you're trying to explain regarding the use of the archetypes - but I am not sure whether you have considered the origins of those archetypes?

Please consider the following two (historical) facts:

1 - In classic palmistry the names have been connected directly with the planets, e.g. Ed writes on page 15 in his book:

"Palmistry Geography

Traditionally, the finger have been known by four names, and the areas of the palm by seven names all relating to the names of the first seven planets discovered, counting the sun as a planet."

So, I think one can hardly deny that the palmistry vocabulary has traditionally been related to the planets. Only in modern times (e.g. Benham) one can see that the authors started refering to the Greece- and Roman mythology. But one should not forget that those mythologies raised from the study of the planets in those days.

2 - In astrology a likewise approach is being used, because astrologists have a different understanding of the planets than the modern astronomical understanding of what a planet is - see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planets_in_astrology

In the following table (on the same page) we can seen how both the Roman and Greece gods directly relate to the planets: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planets_in_astrology#Planetary_symbolism

So, I think it is obvious that the use of the planetary names in 'mythology' should not be completely disconnected from the planets themselves... because the archetypes resulted from a study of shy! And at the end, if one denies that there is any connection between the archetypes and the planets, this even could easily be described as a denial of some historical facts.

PS. I would have no problem if one claims that in palmistry the planetary archetypes are used in a different manner compared to astrology in terms of purpose - but I also think that it is actually quite difficult to describe the exact difference.

Because the original purpose of palmistry and astrology was sort of the same: 'predicting the future'. But in modern times western palmistry became more and more disconnected from this original purpose, however... in many countries around the word this orginial approach is usually still it's 'core-business'.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:22 pm

anand_palm wrote:Hello all,

I remember somewhere in the forum about planetarty position in astrology to finger and mount areas. I suppose the person name is upendra bhadoirya he had put some hindu chart. But the important thingh is meaning of the area which you are studying. If thumb is venus then attributes of venus have to be given to it.

Thanks
Anand

Hello Anand,

Regarding your original question:

'Can Thumb be called venus finger?'

I think the answer to your question is a simple: 'no' - for many reason, but I would like to point out here to the following 3 arguments:

- First of all, you should become aware that all 'digits' in the hand and the foot have 3 phlanges... except the thumb - which has only 2 phalanges!

Parender already made some important comments, because the thumb has traditionally indeed been recognized to represent special characteristics, and often it is not described as a normal 'finger'. Sometimes one speaks of the hand having 4 fingers... plus one thumb.

(Though I would of course not start a debate if people talk about 'the 5 fingers of the hand')

- In a religious context one could say that the thumb represents the body (thumb mouse), the mind (second phalange), and the soul (first phalange).

- And from an anatomic point of view one can notice another significant difference difference compared to the (other) 4 finger: regarding it's mobility, the top phalange of the thumb is (usually) not able to touch the mount of venus (while in the fingers the top phalange can touch the other 2 phalanges + the connected palmar zone).

This again show the rather unusual nature of the thumb!

Anand, does this answer your question?

**Lynn** Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:40 pm

hi Martijn, I'm not denying the connection between the names and the planets, nor between the archetypes and the planets. re -the origins of those archetypes - the mythological references to the Gods came first, the planets were later named after these Gods.

**Magda van Dijk-Rijneke** Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:29 pm

Hello everybody,

Well, I do not use planetaire archetypes but the mythological system of the gods. Chirology has his own science.

Palmistry Geography
Traditionally, the finger have been known by four names, and the areas of the palm by seven names all relating to the names of the first seven planets discovered, counting the sun as a planet."

Did you also know…one of the ancient stories. In the Indian mythology you have the God of sea Samudra (archetype) and this God is the originator of the ''science by Samudra'' or the study Samudra Shastra (that means "the ocean of knowledge''). A branch from this science is Chirology!.

Further, formerly one of the principle is that the gods lives on the planets and the fate of the people on Earth to lead their insight and controlled. Same gods were associated with the people their fate in the hands (even our God, see Bible). Each god symbolizes a particular psychological aspect of the character (archetype).

"Figure on page 15. Lower Mars should be raised. It still lies on the same side of the hand, but between the two horizontal lines. Vulcan should be moved up to sit where Lower Mars now sits. Venus can be raised to about where Vulcan is."

Thanks Martijn fore located the pages in Cambell’s book, but there are more other books.

And the correction of page 15 is very welcome. I always knew that and what I have writing before. The Vulcan Mountain is located just below the thumb implant (under Familyring), between the mount of Mars and Venus, and is sometimes called the second mount of Sun. This section is the link between the mounts of Venus, radial Mars and the Thumb.

In my opinion Anand we can not mention the thumb the venus finger. I have already described why not. But we can call the thumb known as Pollux. Pollux is a son of the god Jupiter and a halfbrother of Mars, Vulcan and his halfsister Venus. So all is in the family of the Thumb Can Thumb be called venus finger? - Page 2 898444

Can Thumb be called venus finger? - Page 2 898444

Pollux name is derived from the Latin verb polleo, which means:

• Is powerful, is powerful, thrives well

• Has prosperity prevails,

• Is responsible, is able and prevails

Warm regards

P.S. I'am also agree with Lynn

Patti Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:23 pm

Thanks Martijn for sharing the pages from Ed's book. I also found another remark (page 73) that suggests Vulcan is one of those places that a triradius can be located whereas Mars isn't.

There's a location where the so called 'loop of courage' is located that is also an area that can be a little mound of it's own. Or, the whole area can be inflated or deflated (below life line). I'm supposing from the descriptions that this bump where the ridge pattern occasionally forms is not Vulcan, but Mars. (or interdigital area I)

I completely have a foot in each world here. I totally identify with Lynn and Magda regarding how using archetypes and symbols trigger the subconscious, perhaps even the collective unconscious and the primal memory etc. to give multi dimensional definitions to hand features.

Yet at the same time, these brief descriptive phrases like "Girdle of Venus, Persephone, and my Star Trek" give plenty of room for misinterpretation. Persephone itself can be reinterpreted to mean a number of aspects from the myth as I showed with illustrations in an earlier post. Spier's simple term "milieu" has been stretched to indicate so much more than Spier wrote and even relocated at times in the palm.

I don't think people will ever willingly drop the symbolic terminology. Even medicat texts will often mention such things as the Distal Transverse Crease is the Palmist's heart line because it is helpful in confirming which crease is being discussed. If we could all agree on the locations of zones of the hands, what we call them wouldn't matter as much. Where I get concerned is when meaning is applied to the feature from a subjective interpretation of a label/word/term.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:38 pm

Lynn wrote:hi Martijn, I'm not denying the connection between the names and the planets, nor between the archetypes and the planets. re -the origins of those archetypes - the mythological references to the Gods came first, the planets were later named after these Gods.

Okay Lynn, but still... I think those planetary archetypes are generally recognized as representing THE link between the planets & astrology!

(Because those planetary archetypes are projections of the human mind describing the mysterious forces related to the planets)

Therefore I think that a philosophical inconsistancy is created by suggesting that the planetary archetypes in palmistry are not connected with astrology.

Makes sense now?

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:19 pm

Patti wrote:
I don't think people will ever willingly drop the symbolic terminology.

Hi Patti, thanks for adding your thoughts.

Regarding dropping the terminology, I think there are already multiple systems available were the 'planetary archetypes' play no role at all (e.g. PDC, 5 element chirology).

The elemental approach is one of those examples. For, in that approach there is no direct connection with astrology because the concepts in that approach are focussed to describe earthly forces than can be perceived & studied via our senses.

A huge difference compared to the 'planetary archetypes'!

Of course, I realize that the elements usually also play a significant role in (western) astrology as well, however...

"Many philosophies and worldviews have a set of classical elements believed to reflect the simplest essential parts and principles of which anything consists or upon which the constitution and fundamental powers of anything are based."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element

So I think from a philosophical point of view... the major difference is that in the elemental approach there is plenty of room to talk about classic elemental archetypes without any need to make a reference to astrology at all. Simply because basically the elemental philosophy has no fundamental connections with astrology.

(Historically it appears that the elements were integrated in western astrology over time. I am sure that Manfred is able to inform us about the 'why' and 'when'.)

PS. And yes Patti, I fully support your worries regarding how the vocabularies can work out as a 'handicap' in our search for the truth (in terms of uncouscious triggers in our and people's minds). Thanks for adding that element in this discussion! Thumbs up!

Patti Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:30 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
I don't think people will ever willingly drop the symbolic terminology.

Hi Patti, thanks for adding your thoughts.

Regarding dropping the terminology, I think there are already multiple systems available were the 'planetary archetypes' play no role at all (e.g. PDC, 5 element chirology).

The elemental approach is one of those examples. For, in that approach there is no direct connection with astrology because the concepts in that approach are focussed to describe earthly forces than can be perceived & studied via our senses.

A huge difference compared to the 'planetary archetypes'!

Of course, I realize that the elements usually also play a significant role in (western) astrology as well, however...

"Many philosophies and worldviews have a set of classical elements believed to reflect the simplest essential parts and principles of which anything consists or upon which the constitution and fundamental powers of anything are based."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element

So I think from a philosophical point of view... the major difference is that in the elemental approach there is plenty of room to talk about classic elemental archetypes without any need to make a reference to astrology at all. Simply because basically the elemental philosophy has no fundamental connections with astrology.

(Historically it appears that the elements were integrated in western astrology over time. I am sure that Manfred is able to inform us about the 'why' and 'when'.)

PS. And yes Patti, I fully support your worries regarding how the vocabularies can work out as a 'handicap' in our search for the truth (in terms of uncouscious triggers in our and people's minds). Thanks for adding that element in this discussion!

Thank you Martijn for your explanation.

I think the elemental method works only in the sense that it represents a spectrum of energies. Where I may observe the creases range from fine and shallow to wide and deep, those working with the Western elemental system would see the same range as from water to air, fire and then earth. This elemental system is based on four elements.

There is a different elemental system used in Feng Shui that it just as valid as far as elements and senses go. It consists of five elements.

Elements can be expressed as to how they interact with each other. i.e. water puts out fire, fire turns water into steam - which is water and air mixed, air fuels fire, fire destroys earth, earth feeds fire, earth and water make mud. etc.

This is common sense, but it is also a form of symbology when these concepts come to mind when elementally combining hand features.

**anand_palm** Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm

Hello Martijn

But the relationship of finger and mounts have to be drawn clearly. Okay based on parinder argument because thumb has two phalanges, however thumb is also treated as fingers. But some kind of meaning to planets needs to be assigned to thumb. my question is how would you base it upon. Okay do you base it upon venus or somethingh else. if something else according to magda it is pollox, but then what should be intepretaiton for the thumb. the fingers have to be in accordance to palm mounts is what iam trying to connect to.

Thanks
Anand

Patti Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:16 pm

anand_palm wrote: But some kind of meaning to planets needs to be assigned to thumb. my question is how would you base it upon.
Thanks
Anand

Why do you think this? Labels and symbols are simply to help trigger particular thoughts. The areas of the hands and fingers do not really need labels or names to give them 'meaning'. Observation of people, their behavior and personal characteristics along with their hand features is where the 'meanings' come from. Then these meanings are associated with similar archetypes, various symbolic images, characteristics of planetary aspects and as so forth. The hands do not need labels to have meaning. It's just helpful to have a common language for discussion of these hand features.

**anand_palm** Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:54 pm

Why do you think this? Labels and symbols are simply to help trigger particular thoughts. The areas of the hands and fingers do not really need labels or names to give them 'meaning'. Observation of people, their behavior and personal characteristics along with their hand features is where the 'meanings' come from. Then these meanings are associated with similar archetypes, various symbolic images, characteristics of planetary aspects and as so forth. The hands do not need labels to have meaning. It's just helpful to have a common language for discussion of these hand features..

Hello Patti

What i really meant there has to be good starting point, i agree with you totally that meanings associated with planets being assigned starts from behavior and based on which attributes with certain qualities are higlighted and correlated to the planets. But it is easy to read if names are given and having a good approach. always the thumb confuses thinghs in respect to meaning assigned to a particular planet. My question is why is this left out without any attributes to a planet meaning. and why does it not correlate to its corresponding mount below it.

Thanks
anand

Patti Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:59 pm

anand_palm wrote:

Hello Patti

What i really meant there has to be good starting point, i agree with you totally that meanings associated with planets being assigned starts from behavior and based on which attributes with certain qualities are higlighted and correlated to the planets. But it is easy to read if names are given and having a good approach. always the thumb confuses thinghs in respect to meaning assigned to a particular planet. My question is why is this left out without any attributes to a planet meaning. and why does it not correlate to its corresponding mount below it.

Thanks
anand

What about the planet Earth? I think it would make a better name for the thenar area than Venus.

**anand_palm** Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:04 pm

Hello Patti

Thats pretty orginal, sounds great to me. Hope others agree.

Thanks
Anand

Patti Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:13 pm

anand_palm wrote:Hello Patti

Thats pretty orginal, sounds great to me. Hope others agree.

Thanks
Anand

I'm not really serious about naming the thumb, Earth. Thumb is a good enough name. First and second phalanges of the thumb is a suitable title, along with upper, middle and lower thenar as it's base. As Martijn is pointing out, we don't need descriptive labels. These only work if everyone agrees on the what the descriptive label means. Our cultures and the shift in meaning in translation from language to language creates the confusion you describe.

**anand_palm** Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:27 am

Hello Patti

Personally if everythingh goes according to some planet name, then thumb should not be left out is what i feel. Okay so accroding to you thumb is more of earth features. I liked the idea of giving a name earth, it sounded original to me and seems to fit in descipriton of thumb as usally books denote will ower, stability, determination ect.. and probably that is what thumb is all about.

Thanks
Anand

**Lynn** Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:49 am

In the 5 element system, the Saturn finger is known as the Earth finger. The thenar area is the Earth quadrant of the hand. The thumb was labelled the ether digit, as it pulls together the energy of the hand as a whole before it's final expression out into the world. Statues of Buddha usually have 3 phalanges to the thumb, representing his ability to understand and communicate ether or spirit.

(edit PS, by 5-element system, I meant the system of handredaing that I learnt at Cheirological Society - earth, water, fire, air, ether)

Patti Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:22 pm

Lynn wrote:In the 5 element system, the Saturn finger is known as the Earth finger. The thenar area is the Earth quadrant of the hand. The thumb was labelled the ether digit, as it pulls together the energy of the hand as a whole before it's final expression out into the world. Statues of Buddha usually have 3 phalanges to the thumb, representing his ability to understand and communicate ether or spirit.

Then we have Earth energy as an element and Earth energy as a planet.

**Manfred** Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:49 pm

Dear Martijn and friends,

first of all we have to take care don't mixing together the four and five (Chinese?) element systems, we discussed in the past.
Western astrology uses the four elements, usually said to go back to Greece. We find this in the Western astrological system in the four element trigons of the Zodiac signs:

- Fire trigon: Aries, Lion, Sagitarius (all belonging to the fire element)
- Earth trigon: Taurus, Virgin, Capricorn
- Air trigon: Gemini, Libra, Aquzarius
- Water trigon: Cancer, Scorpion, Pisces.

For me they are very simplified primary expressions of the atheric plan, while the planets express the astral plan. I don't follow the correlation between the elements and fingers or lines.

I use for the thenar the traditionally correlation to Venus (Taurus) and the second house(!). Secondary the 5th house, Sun.
I'm not really on the end of my decission about the rest of the thumb, the two phalanxes and the whole thumb., but shurely not Venus!
In fact, it makes some sense to use the Sun for it. For the upper (1st) phalanxe I shulrely use Mars.

Because the astrologically houses are the "individualised zodiac" I found more sense in it to use the houses instead of the Zodiac signs in the hand and for the finger parts.
If we use the first, we could name the parts of the thumb may be:

1st phalanx: Mars, Arie, 1st house.
2nd phalanx: Mercury, Gmini or Virogo, 3rd / 6th house.
3rd part, thenar: Venus, Taurus, second house.

The second house is one (the most) of the Earth houses in the horoscope.

Martijn: I'm just out of office. I'll do the researchings about the element sources in connection with astrology later.

Regards
Manfred

**Lynn** Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:28 pm

Manfred said

first of all we have to take care don't mixing together the four and five (Chinese?) element systems, we discussed in the past.

Yes you're right Manfred. In case I have confused matters, previously when I wrote "In the 5 element system, the Saturn finger is known as the Earth finger.... (& thumb was 'ether' digit') "
I meant the 5-element system of handreading that I learnt at Cheirological Society - earth, water, fire, air, ether. (I have edited my previous msg with this clarification).

**Magda van Dijk-Rijneke** Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:33 pm

Hello friends

More confusing names for the thumb.

The thumb is in the books by Dennis Fairchild named Uranus.

But we can make it more complicated. Dennis Fairchild's book ''PalmReading, he named the ringfinger Venusfinger and the area under the ringfinger mount of Venus. Venus Line instead of Line of Apollo and mount of the Sun instead of mount of Venus.

In another book ''Fortune Telling’’ mount of Apollo instead of mount of Venus (but that may be a clerical error) and also a discribe about the Venus-thumb area.

How about that?

Warm regards

Patti Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:17 pm

Magda van Dijk-Rijneke wrote:Hello friends

More confusing names for the thumb.

The thumb is in the books by Dennis Fairchild named Uranus.

But we can make it more complicated. Dennis Fairchild's book ''PalmReading, he named the ringfinger Venusfinger and the area under the ringfinger mount of Venus. Venus Line instead of Line of Apollo and mount of the Sun instead of mount of Venus.

In another book ''Fortune Telling’’ mount of Apollo instead of mount of Venus (but that may be a clerical error) and also a discribe about the Venus-thumb area.

How about that?

Warm regards

From a very brief Facebook chat with Dennis about a year or so ago, I got the feeling he was no longer in agreement with his earlier writings.

**anand_palm** Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:18 pm

Hello MAgda

i was also thinking the ring should be venus. because venus qualities are more on art and creativity and sun qualities are different.

Thanks
Anand

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