Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

**Lynn** Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:37 am

Patti... yeah.... what? rolling on the floor

don't you dare even go there! Wink

Martijn,
Thanks for noticing that I went carefully step-by-step through all relevant options that were offered by the book & my discussion partners.I am pleased to hear that one confirmed 'confident' assessment is a fine result.

Patti Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:45 am

Lynn wrote: (edit) - Patti said
I agree with the medical communities' approach to the central triradius as well,
I'm still not clear on what you mean by / how you interpret 'central triradius'

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Trirad13

I think the 1937 prints would be more accurate in axis measurements as they were 'rolled' prints and the 1933 handprint was more likely simply pressed against the paper.

**Lynn** Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:05 am

sorry Patti, I appreciate your lines drawn, but I am still not sure....just to clarify ... are you talking about triradius "central to the finger width" as opposed to "central to the fingerprint pattern"?

Patti Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:14 am

Lynn wrote:sorry Patti, I appreciate your lines drawn, but I am still not sure....just to clarify ... are you talking about triradius "central to the finger width" as opposed to "central to the fingerprint pattern"?

See underlined in purple:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Trirad11

"In the tented arch, the triradius is located near the midline axis of the distal phalanx. The distal radiant of the triradius usually points vertically toward the apex of the fingertip."

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Trirad14

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Trirad14

Patti Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:17 am

Lynn and Martijn,
Here is an interesting piece of information from Cummins & Midlo's "Finger Prints, Palms and Soles" Pages 64 & 65.

See below:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Tented17

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Tented17

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Tented18

"a count of but one or two ridges may be meaningless"

I'd say the medical/science communities are stating we are looking at a tented arch. Centrally placed triradius, meaningless ridge count.

**Lynn** Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:58 am

"In the tented arch, the triradius is located near the midline axis of the distal phalanx. The distal radiant of the triradius usually points vertically toward the apex of the fingertip."

Ok thanks. But some loops can also have triradius located near the midline axis of the distal phalanx.

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:42 pm

Patti wrote:Lynn and Martijn,
Here is an interesting piece of information from Cummins & Midlo's "Finger Prints, Palms and Soles" Pages 64 & 65.

See below:

"a count of but one or two ridges may be meaningless"

I'd say the medical/science communities are stating we are looking at a tented arch. Centrally placed triradius, meaningless ridge count.

Patti, in your attempts you made considerations by taking the info 'out of context':

- Regarding the 1st comment: the Disney print does not show a 'staple' - there is only a short connecting ridge line that connects with the looping ridge line (and the latter also has the central ridge line inside).

- Regarding the 2nd comment: they clearly talk about the perspective of a 'genetic analysis': it makes sense that they notify that a loop with one of two ridge could be 'grouped' (not CLASSIFIED!) with the arches.

So your association, that they might state that we are looking at a 'tented arch'... is just a typical example of how you tend to read/interpretate details isolated from their context.

Probably because of the tented-arch scenario that you have in mind, which I think is solely based on your interpretation of the 1933 print (but in your final analyses you never talked about 1) the 'crossing creases', nor the problems related to 2) the abundance of ink

NOTICE: IN YOUR FINAL ANALYSES YOU HAVE IGNORED BOTH ISSUES COMPLETELY!).

PS. Oh... and regarding the 'lines' (vertical- + horizontal axis) in your last picture: the coordinates of the crossing point only matches in the two 1937 prints!! Which explicitely illustrates the 'bias' in your attempts regarding the 1933... even after four weeks of analys!!

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Trirad14

Patti Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:01 pm

I mentioned along with the images that the 1937 prints were more correct in measuring the axis from the print as they were "rolled" from side to side when made and the 1933 print wasn't.

I thought I had posted about the crossing ridges, spikes and tight angle in the possible recurve. I'm seeing that white space as actually white space more and more. In that white space, if one wishes to see it as not white space, there are possibilities for filling it with other than what has been suggested. May not be a recurve at all. Just depends on how you imagine it.

Regarding the possibility of crossing and abutting ridges at sharp recurves here are a couple of samples showing just that:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Spike_10

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Spike_10

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Spike_11

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Angle_17

Patti Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:11 pm

Patti Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:28 pm

If you follow the guidelines shown in this illustration from the slide show tutorial for fingerprint classification for the proper method to locate the shoulders, you will see there are spikes and/or appendages at both shoulders and centered in the middle in the space between the shoulders.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Should27

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Should27

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Should28

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:16 pm

Patti wrote:I mentioned along with the images that the 1937 prints were more correct in measuring the axis from the print as they were "rolled" from side to side when made and the 1933 print wasn't.

I thought I had posted about the crossing ridges, spikes and tight angle in the possible recurve. ...

Patti, these comments appear to be a response to the 2 points that I made in my former comment...

- But I was talking about 'crossing creases' (= lines)... not 'crossing ridges'

(In your comments you basically only confirmed that you can see them as well in all three prints, but I think you never faced the direct consequences regarding the zone surrounding the central ridge line)

- And my comment about the problem with the coordinates of the axes in your last picture does not relate to how the prints were 'rolled'.

By the way, one can not permanently defined the position of the triradius to the vertical axis: which should be defined as the vertical center of finger... but not the fingerprint! Because without consulting the finger itself one can never be sure that the 'symmetry' seen in a fingerprint is an accurate reflection of the true morphology of the finger.

By the way, Richard Unger is very aware of this; he has even stated to me in an email conversation that formally his 'approach' is not suitable to be applied on ink-fingerprints - because in his system the position of the triradius is decise - and therefore he teaches his students that it is important to do a fingerprint assessment directly from the hand.

So, it is a fundamental flaw to assume that we can read the 'vertical axis' from the Disney fingerprints... because the profile of the full finger is missing!!!

This explains why I have never talked about that issue (and probably for the same reason Lynn did not talk about that issue either).

Patti Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:16 am

Lynn wrote:
"In the tented arch, the triradius is located near the midline axis of the distal phalanx. The distal radiant of the triradius usually points vertically toward the apex of the fingertip."

Ok thanks. But some loops can also have triradius located near the midline axis of the distal phalanx.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 25 Cummin11

This chart of fingerprints is based on the right hand and ranging from ulnar to radial with the central patterns having the most central triradius. (that was either Cummin's & Midlo's explanation or Schaumann & Alter or both)

The loops with the central triradii are in the bottom row of tented arches and in the row above (25, 26 and 27) they are really borderline. Disney's is apparently (to me) in transition from an incomplete pattern to an arch. I think the failed pattern is a whorl and not a loop.

In the bottom row of tented arches, although the ones on the very ends look alike, 31, 32 and 33 are directed differently than 36 & 37. This is why I think the FBI gave it a radial classification. Ridge count 1 does not represent a loop in arch classifications, and the T stands for Tented Arch.

Notice the humping up in the middle of the fingerprint in the proximal region in those prints with the central triradius. Working with an ink print and not a live finger, this should be a clue, as it's only seen in those with central disruptions in the horizontal flow of ridges.

In Disney's print, the humping up is where the short upthrust is placed. The core is the center of the pattern and this short upthrust is where you and Martijn agreed the core should be placed. Therefore if the distal end of the upthrust (or rod) is the core or center of the pattern, then it would also make sense that the humping upwards ridges centered underneath are also in the center.

Whenever I see a centrally placed triradius when I'm reading hands, I'm very aware of the arch nature, usually one or two of the other finger prints will be arches or low loops.

**jeanette** Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:34 pm

Hi Martijin,
I was looking through this and I got as far as where you give the advanced fingerprint analysis link. You have first Life Purpose, Life Lesson and Soul Initiation.
In Richard's book he has the School, Life Purpose and Life Lesson. Why the different description. It is the Life Initation I don't understand.
Thanks,
Jeanette.

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:03 pm

jeanette wrote:Hi Martijin,
I was looking through this and I got as far as where you give the advanced fingerprint analysis link. You have first Life Purpose, Life Lesson and Soul Initiation.
In Richard's book he has the School, Life Purpose and Life Lesson. Why the different description. It is the Life Initation I don't understand.
Thanks,
Jeanette.

Sorry Jeanette, I don't understand your question.

(Maybe you can quote the passage from my posts? - Please be aware: this is a 40+ pages topic!!!)

**jeanette** Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:28 pm

My question is as plain as I can describe it. Hopefully somebody else will understand it.

Patti Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:27 am

jeanette wrote:My question is as plain as I can describe it. Hopefully somebody else will understand it.

Hi Jeanette,
I think Martijn is saying it would be helpful to know what page you saw his comment that you are asking so that he can tell in what context it was written. This topic has 42 pages now so for any of us to find the remark you are asking about, we would have to start from the beginning and look through each of his comments until we found what we think you are asking about.

Hope this helps.

flower

**jeanette** Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:26 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

While there are hardly any pictures available of Walt Disney's hands... we can take a look at his fingerprints!

One of the most interesting characteristics is the 'Central Pocket Loop Type Whorl' on his right forefinger.

NOTICE: Here you can find the high-resolution version + some advanced fingerprint analyses made by fingerprint experts Andres J. Washington and hand analyst Richard Unger: This is on page one and you click on where it says.

http://www.handresearch.com/thumbs/walt-disney-fingerprints.htm

Walt Disney is the man who created Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, etc.

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:39 am

jeanette wrote:Hi Martijin,
I was looking through this and I got as far as where you give the advanced fingerprint analysis link. You have first Life Purpose, Life Lesson and Soul Initiation.
In Richard's book he has the School, Life Purpose and Life Lesson. Why the different description. It is the Life Initation I don't understand.
Thanks,
Jeanette.

jeanette wrote:My question is as plain as I can describe it. Hopefully somebody else will understand it.

jeanette wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

While there are hardly any pictures available of Walt Disney's hands... we can take a look at his fingerprints!

One of the most interesting characteristics is the 'Central Pocket Loop Type Whorl' on his right forefinger.

NOTICE: Here you can find the high-resolution version + some advanced fingerprint analyses made by fingerprint experts Andres J. Washington and hand analyst Richard Unger: This is on page one and you click on where it says.

http://www.handresearch.com/thumbs/walt-disney-fingerprints.htm

Walt Disney is the man who created Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, etc.

Well Jeanette, I (we) really needed your copy of the post which you've presented in your last post in order to understand your question.

Regarding the answer to your question:

The vocabulary on my website page about Disney's fingerprints comes from Richard's website, see:
http://www.handanalysis.net/lifeprints/famous.htm#WD
http://www.handresearch.com/thumbs/walt-disney-fingerprints.htm

So, this implicates that the word 'soul inititiation' is probably a synonym for the word 'life school'. Richard created your confusion by using a different vocabulary in his book compared to his much older website.

Thank you for asking!

wave

**jeanette** Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:31 pm

Thanks Martijin,
That is what I thought, but wanted it confirmed.
Jeanette.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:20 am

Jeanette, nice to see that my answer became useful as a confirmation of your own thoughts.

Thanks!

**jeanette** Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:54 pm

I think I am right in thinking the one thing agreed was it was an unusual fingerprint. So how does it get read.
I would also like to know is a double loop read the same as a composite showing indecision.
Finally, as it is known nobody has the same fingerprints. Is it known what would happen if someone was cloned. Would the clone have the same fingerprints.
Thanks
Jeanette.

Roosi Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:03 pm

jeanette wrote:
Finally, as it is known nobody has the same fingerprints. Is it known what would happen if someone was cloned. Would the clone have the same fingerprints.
Jeanette.

It's a long story www.humancloning.org
but
"The child would be a time delayed twin of the father, mother or anyone else that donates DNA. Like a identical twin the cloned child would not have the same fingerprints as the DNA donor."

sunny

**jeanette** Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:26 pm

Thanks Roosi,
I am surprised at that. I would have thought, in my ignorance, that the fingerprints would have been the same. My reason for thinking that was I thought the clone was an exact replica.
Jeanette.

Roosi Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:45 pm

We both got smarter Laughing

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:01 am

jeanette wrote:Thanks Roosi,
I am surprised at that. I would have thought, in my ignorance, that the fingerprints would have been the same. My reason for thinking that was I thought the clone was an exact replica.
Jeanette.

Jeanette, cloning only implicates a genetic replica.

However, the circumstances during pregnancy (including e.g. the health & food used by the mother) also have a significant influence on the development of fingerprints.

And therefore it makes sense that the clone will not develop the same fingerprints - though it will likely have some similarities, because fingerprints are also under the influence of genetics.

Makes sense now for you as well?

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