Re: Request for Mark Seltman

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:44 pm

... Just found confirmation that it was Paul Tesla who made Ted Bundy's hand prints:

"Paul Tesla, working with the Bartow, Florida, Police Department, was able to obtain the hand-prints of some of the worst serial murderers and rapists in the American prison system. These include the prints of Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Gary Heidnik and Wayne Williams."

Source: The mammoth book of Nostradamus and other prophets

So, now I am 100% confident that Mark Seltman will be able to confirm that we are discussing the hand print... that is included in Paul Tesla's book.

PS. Paul Tesla claims that the hand prints have been endorsed by the Florida Police Department... and therefore there appears not much of a solid basis left for questioning the authenticity of Ted Bundy's handprint (and for me this info is hardly surprizing in the perspective of my earlier observations regarding the many similarities between the hand print & various impressions of Ted Bundy's left hand).

Patti Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:24 pm

After watching the videos, I would need much, much more proof to convince me that the print is of the same person in the video, Ted Bundy.

In practice I read both the front and back of hands in a sitting, I am accustomed to seeing the back of the hand with a bent little finger and this is not the back of the hand of a bent little finger. Of course without proof people can form their own opinions. But that is all it is, an opinion. I don't think the markings in the print relate to the personality we are observing in the video as well.

Perhaps validating a couple more samples from this book might be in order for validation.

Patti Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:25 pm

guypalm wrote:Fantastic Patti !! These videos are almost perfect. I don't think that pinky can be called short or crooked by any stretch of the imagination.

From the screenshots you have provided, his thumb does not appear heavy. It is definitely not short. The contrast can be seen against the thumb of Megan Fox (discussed on this forum sometime ago) who has a 'club thumb'.

I think these videos settle the issue for me ! That print is a fake at worst or inaccurate at best !

BTW, guypalm is not the ID I was using on Sue's forum. But you probably do have my palm. Someday (not that you would care or be interested), I'll stop by in Ohio and show you my palm. Maybe its uniqueness will immediately ring a bell without my having to tell you.

guypalm Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:09 pm

Patti,
I am with you on this.
If Tesla made those prints, then he certainly didn't do a very good job of it. That thumb & pinky are in no way an accurate representation of what is seen in the video & screen capture.
I don't think Tesla's claims are proof by themselves, just as Cheiro's claims are not considered proof. You've mirrored my thoughts by writing, 'Of course without proof people can form their own opinions. But that is all it is, an opinion. '

Patti Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:55 pm

Request for Mark Seltman - Page 2 Bundy_10

The proximal phalange is the strongest give-a-away.

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:05 pm

guypalm wrote:Patti,
I am with you on this.
If Tesla made those prints, then he certainly didn't do a very good job of it. That thumb & pinky are in no way an accurate representation of what is seen in the video & screen capture.
I don't think Tesla's claims are proof by themselves, just as Cheiro's claims are not considered proof. You've mirrored my thoughts by writing, 'Of course without proof people can form their own opinions. But that is all it is, an opinion. '

Hello guypalm,

Sorry, I don't think there is any ground to associate Tesla's work with the nature of Cheiro's claims. Afterall... Tesla would have been a complete lunatic if he had claimed the endorsment by the Florida police department (Bundy was arrested in Florida) if this is not true at all.

Now that it has become more obvious that some aspects of the 'thumb print' may have been the result of some imperfection during the printing-procedure... it would make much more sense to re-focus your attention to other aspects of the hand.

By the way, I don't think that the authenticity of Tesla's materials has ever been questioned before. In my view a faulty approach was used to question the Bundy handprint.by focussing on the thumb print... without any thorough attempt to wonder about whether the thumb print could be the result of the printing method.

PS. Regarding the thumb-print... usually thumbs are clearly twisted towards the palm, and as a result in most hand prints the thumb may not look much wider than the fingerprints. However, in cases where the thumb has only a slight twist towards the palm the thumb can leave a rather 'broad' impression on the paper (especially when the thumb is pressed with some pressure on the paper... it might 'role' a little bit over the paper).

But in Tesla's Bundy hand print we can see that he has drawn the contour of the thumb very close to the borders of the thumb print; so this might indicate that Tesla was actually aware of this effect.

I hope this additional observation will help you to recognize that there is no 'objective' evidence in the thumb print at all to question the authenticity of the hand print; my own doubts were basically only fueled by the fact that the photo of Bundy's right hand clearly shows a 'dissociated head line'... which made me wonder about his left hand (because the hand print clearly shows a 'connected head line'); however, Patti's youtube movies have provided the evidence that Bundy's left hand clearly has a connected headline (+ a fate line that is positioned not far aways from the life line). And I had already mentioned that the finger lenghts in Bundy's hand photos (for both hands) are quite similar to the hand prints. Therefore I can now only conclude that there is plenty of photo- and movie-evidence which confirms the authenticity of Tesla's work.

**Lynn** Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:14 pm

guypalm wrote:Patti,
I am with you on this.
If Tesla made those prints, then he certainly didn't do a very good job of it. That thumb & pinky are in no way an accurate representation of what is seen in the video & screen capture.

I agree.

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:20 pm

Patti wrote:

The proximal phalange is the strongest give-a-away.

Hi Patti,

In this impression Bundy's left pinky finger is for sure not fully stretched... nor is this impression taken from a frontal view. For this reason this impression does not present a representive view of how the finger would look like on paper.

Anything that we seen on such impressions should be considered with the exact perspective of the camera.

I can illustrate this with another example:

The video impression (I think you've used your 2nd video-picture - see below) might suggest to an observer that Bundy has a very long pinky finger... however, a consideration of the camera's positon explains that this is actually not the case at all!

(This issue might require some visuo-spatial mental-effort to understand my point, I hope I have explained it well enough?)

Request for Mark Seltman - Page 2 Ted_bu12

Request for Mark Seltman - Page 2 Ted_bu12

RishiRahul Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:47 pm

Hello,

A palmists viewing should be Objective + Subjective. Otherwise the Learning would be Incomplete.

The older palmists (more intuitive) were more Subjective than Objective.
The newer= vice versa.

The thumb is not straight; Larger or smaller is not well discernible, and also doesn't confirm to confirm to have a say on criminality/crookedness.

RishiRahul

Patti Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:57 pm

This thumb print is obviously not reliable. It was apparently inserted into the outlined hand print. Notice the clean edge just below the middle of the thumb. That would indicate to me the thumb was printed at the edge of something and then fixed into this print.

Also, the little finger in the print obviously has a bend in the the lower joint. The images side by side show there is no bend in the joint... and the sections of the finger are not the same proportions. The outline *should* have been traced around a hand from the backside, Martijn, so I believe you are incorrect in saying that this cannot be correctly determined from the back of the hand. scratch

The traced finger does not match the photo. Really quite obvious, in my opinion.

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:06 pm

RishiRahul wrote:Hello,

A palmists viewing should be Objective + Subjective. Otherwise the Learning would be Incomplete.

The older palmists (more intuitive) were more Subjective than Objective.
The newer= vice versa.

The thumb is not straight; Larger or smaller is not well discernible, and also doesn't confirm to confirm to have a say on criminality/crookedness.

RishiRahul

Yes, good point!

In striving for finding 'objective' observations, comparing materials always becomes a matter of using your observation skills.

For example:

In the picture below one can even analyse the 'shade' between the pinky and ring finger... in order to find out that this 'shade' could actually have taken the attention away from the true inner outline of the pinky finger!

Because, after looking inside the shade I think we can observe a slight inward curve in the pinky finger!

And combined with my earlier observation regarding the position of the camera + the fact that the finger is not fully stretched... this might explain why the photo and the hand print my give a different 'appearance' - despite that we are talking about the same hand!

Request for Mark Seltman - Page 2 Ted_bu12

RishiRahul Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:20 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:Hello,

A palmists viewing should be Objective + Subjective. Otherwise the Learning would be Incomplete.

The older palmists (more intuitive) were more Subjective than Objective.
The newer= vice versa.

The thumb is not straight; Larger or smaller is not well discernible, and also doesn't confirm to confirm to have a say on criminality/crookedness.

RishiRahul

Yes, good point!

In striving for finding 'objective' observations, comparing materials always becomes a matter of using your observation skills.

For example:

In the picture below one can even analyse the 'shade' between the pinky and ring finger... in order to find out that this 'shade' could actually have taken the attention away from the true inner outline of the pinky finger!

Because, after looking inside the shade I think we can observe a slight inward curve in the pinky finger!

And combined with my earlier observation regarding the position of the camera + the fact that the finger is not fully stretched... this might explain why the photo and the hand print my give a different 'appearance' - despite that we are talking about the same hand!

Hi,

Good point too.

The position of the camera can point to facts; but not to the Truth.
The little bit crookedness in the material phalange can only suggest not normal perceptions; but some crookedness in thinking.
With other indications it can lead to criminal tendencies

Martjin, looking at things more subjectively would help better.
Or else what is the 'use' of Palmistry.

Thanks for responding!

RishiRahul

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:25 pm

Patti wrote:This thumb print is obviously not reliable. It was apparently inserted into the outlined hand print. Notice the clean edge just below the middle of the thumb. That would indicate to me the thumb was printed at the edge of something and then fixed into this print.

Also, the little finger in the print obviously has a bend in the the lower joint. The images side by side show there is no bend in the joint... and the sections of the finger are not the same proportions. The outline *should* have been traced around a hand from the backside, Martijn, so I believe you are incorrect in saying that this cannot be correctly determined from the back of the hand. The traced finger does not match the photo. Really quite obvious, in my opinion.

Patti, I think we do agree that some aspects of the thumb print are a bit misleading.

Actually, during the past 20 years I have never adopted the use of making an 'outline' around the handprints that I have made... because I feel that this method ALWAYS leads to some imperfections that can easily lead to misleading impressions (that are not confirmed via a direct observation of the hand).

For this reason... I never expect to meet much of quality regarding any outline around a handprint. Regarding this aspect of the Bundy hand print: I could add that the outline of the palm-pinky connection shows an unnatural feature - because the silhout of any hand always tends to manifest as almost a straight line (when the pinky finger is positioned straight forward)... but that is not the case in this hand print.

And... especially when the pinky gets 'more relaxed' during the making of an outline, it may look as if the pinky finger is very curved while the actual curve may be much smaller than seen in the outline!

So, basically... by principle I would not even start looking for photo-evidence regarding a curved pinky finger; because the hand posture in photos is nearly always quite different from the posture the making of a hand print!

I hope this explains why my attention got focussed much more on the finger lengths & the hand lines... in order to find only confirming evidence that the hand print presents many similarities with photos of Bundy's left hand.

wave

RishiRahul Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:50 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:This thumb print is obviously not reliable. It was apparently inserted into the outlined hand print. Notice the clean edge just below the middle of the thumb. That would indicate to me the thumb was printed at the edge of something and then fixed into this print.

Also, the little finger in the print obviously has a bend in the the lower joint. The images side by side show there is no bend in the joint... and the sections of the finger are not the same proportions. The outline *should* have been traced around a hand from the backside, Martijn, so I believe you are incorrect in saying that this cannot be correctly determined from the back of the hand. The traced finger does not match the photo. Really quite obvious, in my opinion.

Patti, I think we do agree that some aspects of the thumb print are a bit misleading.

Actually, during the past 20 years I have never adopted the use of making an 'outline' around the handprints that I have made... because I feel that this method ALWAYS leads to some imperfections that can easily lead to misleading impressions (that are not confirmed via a direct observation of the hand).

For this reason... I never expect to meet much of quality regarding any outline around a handprint. Regarding this aspect of the Bundy hand print: I could add that the outline of the palm-pinky connection shows an unnatural feature - because the silhout of any hand always tends to manifest as almost a straight line (when the pinky finger is positioned straight forward)... but that is not the case in this hand print.

And... especially when the pinky gets 'more relaxed' during the making of an outline, it may look as if the pinky finger is very curved while the actual curve may be much smaller than seen in the outline!

So, basically... by principle I would not even start looking for photo-evidence regarding a curved pinky finger; because the hand posture in photos is nearly always quite different from the posture the making of a hand print!

I hope this explains why my attention got focused
much more on the finger lengths & the hand lines... in order to find only confirming evidence that the hand print presents many similarities with photos of Bundy's left hand.

The pinky finger is also not straight, showing crooked perceptions.

The thumb photo doesnt confirm anything, but the bent finger does show not very straight perceptions.
Added to this the hand shows a careless attitude in life; not caring much about circumstance.
I would not like to 'blame' Cheiro for this.

Looking at things more subjectively, Martjin, would help making sense of Palmistry better.

I am sure you would do brilliant

RishiRahul

.

RishiRahul

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:56 pm

guypalm wrote:Hello Mr. Seltman,

Yesterday, I happened to visit your blog. On the home page of your website, it is stated:

'Mark has also examined hundreds of criminally insane people’s hands at a forensic psychiatric hospital in New York City over a two-year period.'

I am EXTREMELY interested in knowing specific indicators that you've found in the hands of the criminally insane. Your comments would be highly appreciated.

Thanks!

Guypalm, we have descussion topic available about the hands of 'psychopaths' - see:
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t101-the-palms-of-psychopaths

RishiRahul Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:22 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
guypalm wrote:Hello Mr. Seltman,

Yesterday, I happened to visit your blog. On the home page of your website, it is stated:

'Mark has also examined hundreds of criminally insane people’s hands at a forensic psychiatric hospital in New York City over a two-year period.'

I am EXTREMELY interested in knowing specific indicators that you've found in the hands of the criminally insane. Your comments would be highly appreciated.

Thanks!

Guypalm, we have descussion topic available about the hands of 'psychopaths' - see:
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t101-the-palms-of-psychopaths

In summary, what are you trying to reveal/trying to say in contexting this thread?

RishiRahul

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:48 pm

RishiRahul wrote:

In summary, what are you trying to reveal/trying to say in contexting this thread?

RishiRahul

Rishi... in his first post guypalm asked for info about 'the criminally insane', and in response I refered to the topic about 'psychopaths' - which has exactly the same objective.

I hope my reference now makes sense for you?

wave

RishiRahul Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:17 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:

In summary, what are you trying to reveal/trying to say in contexting this thread?

RishiRahul

Rishi... in his first post guypalm asked for info about 'the criminally insane', and in response I refered to the topic about 'psychopaths' - which has exactly the same objective.

I hope my reference now makes sense for you?

For criminally insane people:=

The moon has to be afflicted.
Moon here stands for the mount of moon + the head line (line of mentality or the line of mother a s per the olden indian palmistry).
This is for the mental bent in terms of aberrations of the mind.

But also when the emotions/emotional life is/are disturbed, the heart line is disturbed; either very long or very short andor wavy/other distortions.

For parental love distortions(which normally leads to these problems =
The mother line or father line aberrations would reveal.

RishiRahul

**Lynn** Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:22 am

mark seltman wrote:This is an extremely hard question, as each case and individual is unique. If there was one particular feature in patient hands that I saw most frequently, it was a complete lack of peripheral lines. Many of the most psychotic patients appeared to lack superegos. They saw only one solution to their problem (murder) and weren't concerned about the consequences of their actions. On the whole, I found the staff much more neurotic than the patients.

Thanks for your interesting observations Mark.
"On the whole, I found the staff much more neurotic than the patients." made me laugh, but I understand how true that can be! Laughing

**Lynn** Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:29 am

RishiRahul wrote:
For criminally insane people:=

The moon has to be afflicted.
Moon here stands for the mount of moon + the head line (line of mentality or the line of mother a s per the olden indian palmistry).
This is for the mental bent in terms of aberrations of the mind.

But also when the emotions/emotional life is/are disturbed, the heart line is disturbed; either very long or very short andor wavy/other distortions.

For parental love distortions(which normally leads to these problems =
The mother line or father line aberrations would reveal.

RishiRahul

hi Rishi,
I'm not sure if I mentioned this before, I didn't check out the thread that Martijn linked to -
years ago I went to a Cheirological Society seminar about mental illness & mental handicap in the hand. We were given various handprints to look at. Most of us managed to correctly 'diagnose' some of the prints eg Down's syndrome, schizophrenia, depression. But there was at least one print where none of the trained hand readers could notice 'anything wrong'. That was the hand of the psychopath. Scary!!!!

(EDIT) PS Ooops. sorry for repeating myself, I now notice on the link Martijn posted, I posted another link to where I wrote about this before in 2010. https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t95-can-mental-illness-be-diagnosed-from-the-palm

guypalm Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:56 am

I just posted a lengthy post which has weird formatting. So am deleting it till I get the formatting right.

guypalm Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:06 am

Hello Martijn,

Thank you for your detailed response. Firstly, to begin with, I must tell you that I very much hoped that the authenticity of this print be proven. But my bigger issue (which I have already stated) is that this print is misleading.
Let me address some issues mentioned by you.

Now that it has become more obvious that some aspects of the 'thumb print' may have been the result of some imperfection during the printing-procedure... it would make much more sense to re-focus your attention to other aspects of the hand.

The hand print was posted by you. I was glad to see that print. However, what I noticed immediately is that the bent pinky, low 2d:4d ratio & short heavy thumb had been explicitly pointed out in an apparent attempt to explain Bundy's criminal deviance. NO OTHER FEATURE WAS REFERRED TO. I do not know who labeled that print, but if it was Tesla, then it presents a major problem. If the thumb is NOT short & heavy but the print makes it appear so, then that print is highly misleading & Tesla has intentionally or otherwise played a role in this by pointing out features that do not really exist. This lack of due diligence would lead me to question other features of the print, thus I would be very careful before focusing on other aspects of the print. If Florida police has indeed endorsed this print, then the question is: What elements have they endorsed ? Does it include just the dermatoglyphics & lines or also the shape ? I think these answers are critical.

In my view a faulty approach was used to question the Bundy handprint.by focussing on the thumb print... without any thorough attempt to wonder about whether the thumb print could be the result of the printing
method.

Your view is inaccurate at best. In my first post after the print, I asked for divergent opinions which may explain this anomaly. I expressed the same sentiment in my follow-up post. But rather than explaining this anomaly as the result of 'printing method', you posted 2 very unclear & hazy pictures as evidence that his left hand thumb is wider than the right. You stated: 'However, I think the following 2 photos suggest that his left thumb might have been a bit broader than his right thumb.”
I was surprised that you used those extremely unclear pictures as evidence for your viewpoint, yet denied that Patti's much clearer screen shots can be evidence for the opposing argument. You also relied on 'vague shades' to support your conclusions. In my opinion, this reflects an inconsistent standard for quality of evidence on your part.

This discussion may have gone a different route if you had brought up the issue of 'printing method' in your initial response. Infact the lack of a thorough attempt on your part is evident in the fact that you did not refer to it in your initial response. I'm guessing that 'printing method' error did not occur to you as a possibility at that point. It had occurred to me & that's why I was open to various explanations. I did not want to introduce bias before hearing opposing arguments, thus did not state it explicitly.

PS. Regarding the thumb-print... usually thumbs are clearly twisted towards the palm, and as a result in most hand prints the thumb may not look much wider than the fingerprints. However, in cases where the thumb has only a slight twist towards the palm the thumb can leave a rather 'broad' impression on the paper (especially when the thumb is pressed with some pressure on the paper... it might 'role' a little bit over the paper).
I am myself aware of the inorrect perceptions that printing & outlining can create. Before digital cameras, prints were the best option. But I made it a point to label those prints with clarifying notes to preclude future misconceptions. These days, I always take multiple photos with a high resolution camera.

But in Tesla's Bundy hand print we can see that he has drawn the contour of the thumb very close to the borders of the thumb print; so this might indicate that Tesla was actually aware of this effect.

Whether Tesla was actually aware of this effect is obviously conjecture. And if he was, he should have known that the print is likely to mislead & taken steps to preclude possible misconceptions. Now we are left wondering what other ‘effects’ may be present in the rest of his prints. (Of course, if the labeling has not been done by him & he has explanatory notes in his book, then my argument is invalidated.)

Patti, I think we do agree that some aspects of the thumb print are a bit misleading.

Actually, during the past 20 years I have never adopted the use of making an 'outline' around the handprints that I have made... because I feel that this method ALWAYS leads to some
imperfections that can easily lead to misleading impressions (that are not confirmed via a direct observation of the hand).

Martijn, this would have been a far better line of argument in response to my initial doubt. It would also lead to the conclusion that handprints may not be reliable for the depiction of certain critical elements. It would further mean that other prints in Tesla’s books can be misleading. Without actual photos, we cannot say to what extent they may be so.

I hope this additional observation will help you to recognize that there is no 'objective' evidence in the thumb print at all to question the authenticity of the hand print… And I had already mentioned that the finger
lenghts in Bundy's hand photos (for both hands) are quite similar to the hand prints. Therefore I can now only conclude that there is plenty of photo- and movie-evidence which confirms the authenticity of Tesla's work.

The ’objectivity’of ‘evidence’ in cases such as this, is merely a personal opinion. It goes without saying that we are all free to have our opinions. I fully recognize & support that prerogative to form conclusions based on one's own perceptions. My argument that this print is misleading & unreliable (in the light of current evidence presented on this forum) still stands. Let us agree to disagree. I truly appreciate your time & effort in addressing my concerns.

Thank you.

[/i][/i]

Patti Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:35 am

http://www.amazon.com/gp/forum/cd/discussion.html/ref=ntt_mus_ep_cd_tft_tp?ie=UTF8&cdForum=Fx3HQJDOZPI691Z&cdThread=TxZO3M5PBMWAX2

Let's see if we can get an answer from the author or the publisher.

Guypalm,
I see your point about the strong argument ~~for~~ against this print to be Ted Bundy's.

There are a number of articles and support for various agendas to be found on the internet. There are also many collections of photos on extensive blogs - not one showing a distinct bent little finger. Fingers with clinodactyly do not straighten out during hand movement and curl in for an inkprint. The interphalangeal creases of the lower joint showing in the inkprint matches similar cases I have of people with the curvature at the proximal joint. The inkprint finger actually curves in a totally different manner than the photo here (and many others not uploaded here). This is especially noticeable in the angle the finger leaves the palm at the outer edge. Totally different hand structure!

Request for Mark Seltman - Page 2 Vlcsna10

Request for Mark Seltman - Page 2 Vlcsna10

Request for Mark Seltman - Page 2 Vlcsna11

guypalm Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:42 am

Patti,

I think you mean, my argument against this print being reliable. Correct me if I have misunderstood your first sentence.
Fingers with clinodactyly do not straighten out during hand movement and curl in for an inkprint.
I completely agree with this & is another point against this handprint.

Patti Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:03 am

guypalm wrote:Patti,

I think you mean, my argument against this print being reliable. Correct me if I have misunderstood your first sentence.
Fingers with clinodactyly do not straighten out during hand movement and curl in for an inkprint.
I completely agree with this & is another point against this handprint.

I didn't word that the best it could have been, did I! I made a correction. Smile

I haven't focused on the thumb as much as it was so obvious to me that the thumb print was 'off'. That straight line bothered me until the Idea

went off and I realized why it stood out to me - it was printed at the edge of a piece of paper. In that sense it should have been pressed when printed as the attention would have been focused only on the thumb and not the entire hand.

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